Why Losing Carl Landry Will Help the Warriors

It’s become a meme among Warriors fans that the Warriors are attempting to replace the loss of Carl Landry with Marreese Speights, and that somehow that’s a downgrade. I’m totally not buying that. I’m not even getting the idea of “Speights for Landry.” That is NOT what has occurred.       

What’s really happened by letting Landry go is that more PF minutes were opened up for Harrison Barnes. Remember how thrilled we were with his eye-opening performances at the stretch-four in the playoffs? So much so, that many moronic NBA pundits began writing that all-star power forward David Lee is “in Harrison Barnes way!”

Sorry, that’s idiotic. Barnes is simply not big enough to be a starting power forward. He’d get annihilated over time by the Griffins, Loves, Randolphs and Aldridges of the league.

On the other hand, it absolutely is true that there was a Warriors player standing in Barnes way: Carl Landry. The Warriors discovered in the playoffs — belatedly, in my opinion — that Harrison Barnes was a natural stretch-four, and a far more effective player than Landry. Barnes is a HUGE upgrade over Landry, simply for his floor spreading abilities, but also because he makes the Warriors much better matching up against the other stretch-fours that are increasingly populating second units around the league. If you remember, Landry was completely ineffective matching up against stretch-fours. Not quick enough to defend them, nor to recover back to the paint to rebound. In fact, in Lee-Landry lineups, it was frequently David Lee who was asked to guard the stretch-four.

Barnes at the stretch-four will also make David Lee a much better player when they team up on the front line. First of all, by allowing him to guard centers, which he’s far better at than guarding stretch-fours, and by keeping his all-league rebounding ability close to the basket where it belongs. But also because stationing Barnes in the corner on offense will clear the floor for the pick and roll at which Lee excels. If you remember, many of Landry’s inside buckets last year came against mediocre second units. He struggled to finish against frontline big men in crunch time, while at the same time clogging the paint for the Curry – Lee pick and roll. With Barnes at the four instead, the Warriors will be able to beat even the NBA’s best defensive big men with regularity. By pulling the power forwards out of the lane to guard Barnes in the corner. By going AROUND the centers in the pick and roll. And by pulling the centers outside the paint to guard the high post, and passing BEHIND them to the Warriors’ slashers. None of which was easy when Landry clogged the paint last year.

In fact, I will wager that by replacing Landry with Barnes and Draymond Green, the Warriors will be far more successful at simply forcing many front-line defensive big men off the court altogether in crunch time.

As far as comparing Speights and Landry directly, to me that’s a bit of apples and oranges. No, you can’t throw the ball in to Speights on the low block and get an inside bucket. But YES, you can use Speights to spread the floor, and get an easy inside bucket another way: either pick and roll, or more open driving lanes for Iggy, Barnes and Thompson. Which could very well produce more efficient offense than Landry’s post-ups.

It is appropriate to compare their outside shooting ability, though. And it’s no contest. Speights was one of the five best midrange jump shooters in the entire NBA last season. And has the ability to stretch it out to three point land, if asked. Landry was less than 40% on mid-range jumpers over the last three years.

Finally, Speights is a much more valuable player than Landry because unlike Landry, he’s big and versatile: he’s a center as well as a power forward. It’s not that hard to envision a stretch of games where neither Bogut nor JON is available, is it? I’d lay even money right now that Speights starts some games at center for the Warriors this season.

And Speights is actually a much better center than he is a power forward — his defensive issues are better hidden, and he becomes a valuable pick and pop player. I think some eyes will be opened when he sees the floor alongside Barnes or Green.

Assuming Barnes returns to health, the Warriors second-unit scoring issues are way overblown. If they struggle for scoring, it will be “on the coaches.”

83 Responses to Why Losing Carl Landry Will Help the Warriors

  1. warriorsablaze

    I also think the narrative that “Jack was replaced by Douglas” is also misguided. Jack played starter minutes and had a large role. His replacement is Iguodala… who is a significant upgrade when their all-around games are compared.

  2. This is assuming Barnes continues to deliver at 4.

    And that he doesn’t start.

    A savvy, scoring PG might be able to make use of Speights and Barnes, and cover their IQ weakness.

  3. Raja Bell, Beaubois, and Reggie Williams are available now:


    (And so is SJax)

  4. This will perplex those who think I don’t like Bogut, and root against him: I just drafted him on one of my fantasy teams. I got him as my 3rd center at 135 (he’s ranked 92). And he fits my (very soft) team perfectly as I really needed blocks and rebounds, and nothing else.

    Some notable differences between fantasy Bogut and real life Bogut:
    1) Rotated with Kevin Garnett, he becomes a fairly complete player, with little injury risk.
    2) When he does get injured I can simply drop him, and pick up a replacement.
    3) He doesn’t screw up the offense of my point guards.

  5. Seriously? Lee and Barnes the front line? On paint defense, Barnes is a complete pantywaist, and Lee’s not exactly a league leader.

    Can you say layup line? Their opposition sure could.

    Back to the drawing board, Feltie. If you don’t stop the other guys, there’s no point differential.

    • If Barnes won’t work with Lee then Green will take his crunch time minutes, just as he did last year. The Lee-Green lineups generated the best differential on the Warriors last season.

      However it turns out, it doesn’t change my point about Landry.

      But in the playoffs last year, Barnes proved a much better defender of fours than he was of threes in the regular season.

      • Hat,
        This has to do with match-ups. Felt has pointed out that Barnes cannot start and hold his own against frontline 4’s with back to the basket games. Most quality teams have two different 4’s. They have a back to the basket guy, and at least one or two ‘spread 4’s’ whose job is simply to spread the floor, shoot threes and create match-up havoc for the other team.

        This is the scenario that Felt has described. Jackson understands his different options and hopefully will juggle lineups to dictate what type of game he wants to play. The beauty of this roster is that it is well-rounded.

        Felty, don’t you think you might be overrating Speights a little bit? He came into camp out of shape and seemingly a defensive liability.

        • I agree that he came into camp out of shape. I saw one pretty good defensive effort from him at home in the preseason, the rest not so much. And I know he’s not the brightest bulb. But he can really shoot, and thereby relieve the intense blitzing of Curry we see whenever Bogut plays.

          Let’s see what happens.

  6. Will see at the end of the year whether Barnes is better than Landry. Landry shot 54 percent from the field, Barnes 48 percent. Landry had a PER of 17, Barnes just 11. Your commitment to the stretch 4 is blinding you to reality, as any team can adjust their offense to bring out the best in the players and team on the floor.

    Look for Iggy to be effective at point forward, not point guard. Teams are not going to let Iggy from the PG position to get the the ball to Bogut under the basket during the season.

    I guess you like Speights over Landry because he shoots 45 percent to Landry’s 54 percent. Shooting worse makes you better. Oh, he’s better because he’s bigger and stupid.

    • If the idea is you must replace kind with kind, I’d see your point. But it ain’t so.
      If the coach can’t see the difference, and adjust, and capitalize, I’ll put it on him.
      Not to shock anyone, but I’m with Feltie on this one.
      Besides, isn’t it a moot point. Keeping Landry = Twin Hip Flexors?
      Where I diverge, and I’m not alone in this forest, is the “meme” of stretch PF. Stretch players are essential, it’s just that a few from several spots would suffice. Ala the Heat.
      We’re going to agree, though, stretch centers are extremely rare. But they’re coming, soon, to the NBA.

    • PER is garbage, but just out of curiosity, what were the respective PER’s of Barnes and Landry in the PLAYOFFS, when Barnes played ahead of Landry at his best position, PF, for the first time all season?

      And comparing the shooting % of players in completely different roles is utterly absurd. Was Andris Biedrins the best shooter on the Warriors? As an outside shooter, Landry didn’t hold a candle to Speights last year.

      Stats are worse than useless when used in the wrong context.

    • warriorsablaze

      What do you imagine the functional differences are between point forward and point guard?

    • “Curry is emphasizing attacking the rim and drawing fouls. Last season, his 3.7 free-throw attempts per game were the fewest of any player who averaged at least 18 points. It’s a distinct possibility his scoring could go down and his assist numbers rise.”

      Which I suspect is what Curry did preseason and accounted for a lot of missed shots inside the arc. I expressed my skepticism earlier. If doing this takes away 3 point shots, and setting him up for 3’s, it’s taking away his most effective scoring. And if bulking up throws his shot off, as it did his rookie year, I got concerns.

      • warriorsablaze

        I think you’re looking at this the wrong way… it’s not a strategy to use instead of 3 pointers, it’s a counter. Teams are going to very aggressively run Curry off the 3 pt line, especially come playoff time… he needs to be able to put points on the board in other ways consistently. Free throws are about the most efficient way — particularly for a 90% shooter.

        • You’re probably right, and Curry may just have been practicing driving preseason. Let’s hope. Smart tried to get him to drive more and it didn’t work out for Curry or the team.

  7. we don’t know the name of the forward yet who will pair best with lee playing center. the lee – landry combination was an important part of last season’s success. the team will need an alternative to the owner and coach’s favored duo, bogut and lee. this is a good test to see what the preacher can do without malone’s brain. barnes will certainly get a fair chance, and probably get the most opportunity to secure the role because more is invested in him already.

    • warriorsablaze

      That’s funny… I remember Lee and Landry being particularly ineffective while on the court together. I’ll poke around and see if I can find some stats that back that memory up.

      • if you check 82games.com, the unit that landry put in the most minutes with, about .21 of his total time, was also the most effective he played on — lee, jack, thompson, curry, as one would expect . the preacher scattered landry’s minutes over many combinations, including some where he served as center or the group’s main scorer.

        • warriorsablaze

          I think what I was remembering was that Landry in particular had a large drop in productivity while paired with Lee… overall they may have been a positive together on the floor.

          • The actual data (from nbawowy.com) shows the number one factor dragging Landry’s numbers down was time spent with Draymond Green.

  8. 76 points from the Laker bench. They won’t keep it up, but they will drive a lot of teams crazy this season, as long as Kobe stays out.

    • warriorsablaze

      D’Antoni has that Nellie touch in making marginal talent play above their heads. He doesn’t seem to do as well managing superstars, however.

      I never thought I would ever say this, but I actually despise a team more than I do the Lakers. The Clippers roster is virtually unlikable and just full of whiners. With Kobe out I actually like a lot of Laker players with the exception of Farmar, who is also an unlikable whiner.

      They’ll be inconsistent, but I think they might overachieve until Kobe comes back and destroys all chemistry. Hopefully not tomorrow night, though.

      • Hard as it is to say it, I like this team. The same thing happened when Melo went down with the Knicks and Linsanity ensued.

        Getting a chance to play and score is tremendous incentive for all players, and they showed it last night with rebounds and defense. Scoring can be good defense: it puts opponents on their heels, trying to catch up. This team won’t be able to control a game 4 quarters, though they did stay with the Clips in a slower game 3 quarters, but will have to depend on quick runs, which won’t always happen.

        • Shockingly, I find myself agreeing with you. My negative feelings towards the Lakers derive chiefly from Kobe. It was actually a joyful experience watching this band of rejects take off in Mike D’Antoni’s system. And before that, watching Pau excel in the role that’s been denied him for so many years.

          Hilarious that Kobe showed up at the game wearing black. Can’t help feeling the Lakers didn’t follow his script.

          • I keep coming back to the bench theme. If there’s any talent down the roster, this system will develop it. Henry looked like a franchise pick last night. They’ll also be able to throw a number of lineups that will cover many situations, and adversity, if anyone else goes down.

            They may keep our starters on the floor long minutes. We’ll find out tonight.

      • I’m with you, WAB. Could never stand the Lackers, but w/out Kobe they’re almost bearable.

        With the Lackers fading, the Crippers have now surpassed the Lackers on the despisability meter. Even some of their home press hates them. For those who think some Bay Area sports commentators are too hard on our local teams, here’s a nasty headline from the LA Times:


        • warriorsablaze

          Harsh. I think part of it is just the character of the players. The Warriors are a very high character team…. it’s nearly impossible to not like Curry. Blake and CP3 are two of the biggest babies in the league… it’s not hard to lose respect for them (sportsmanship-wise, if not game-wise). Blake has to be the most overrated player in the league. At least CP3 is generally as good as the hype.

    • warriorsablaze

      There’s way too much silence coming from the team about whatever this mysterious injury is… is it more serious than we’re supposed to believe, or have they adopted new “keep quiet to the media” protocols after the Bogut fiasco last season?

      • My speculative diagnosis is turf toe. Basically inflammation of the tissue connecting the toe to the foot. It can require a month’s rest or more.

        • turf toe is a good guess. if that’s what Mr.Barnes has, it will be susceptible for re-aggravation when he resumes jumping and direction changes while running.

          • The injury could also be plantar fasciitis which needs time to heal before you can continue to do basketball activities, but you are able to walk normally without re-injuring it.

            What was Barnes off season workload? Did he play for team USA or any other summer teams? He may have injured the toe/foot/arch and never let it heal. Or this could simply be an over-use injury.

            I speculate that players need to take at least a full month off during the off season to completely heal from the rigors of the NBA season, and I seem to remember that Barnes was busy playing all off season.

  9. Mysteriously, Lauridsen’s blog is now easier to find from my blog than from the Mercury News Warriors page. Is it still affiliated with the Merc?

    Also he appears to have destroyed his comments formatting. Ironic, as I loved the format of his comments section so much I modeled mine after it.

    • Bay Area Newsgroup is now assimilated into Media Newsgroup, based in Denver. I have taken the Disqus formatting disaster to the Merc News editors, Disqus, and MNG. Absolute silence. Nationwide.

      Of all the good blog software commenting platforms in the world, she had to walk into mine :-(

      Anyway, none of the blog moderators had any input, all blog history was dumped. Blogs that get 6 comments per thread don’t care (Sharks, e.g.). Disqus is an insidious data collection(and sharing!) tool. I wish I did not know this.

      • wow. Has Adam spoken on the issue?

      • “all blog history was dumped”

        Are you saying that my blog has one of the last remaining links to Adam’s archives?

        Irony upon irony.

        • I mis-spoke. Adam and Guest lead-ins are all still there, but the comments sections have been erased. Try it. # displays for a moment then corrects to (0). Same for MTii and TK, from Vermont to Texas to Anchorage.

          Interestingly enough, sometimes clicking on MTii’s new blog tweet will brtiefly display the Mobile Version on your PC, and that formats quite well—more horizontal, absent advertising. But, when I tried a mobile app simulator on my PC it crashed me pretty hard.

      • I’ve looked at Disqus and used it, but I’m not sure why any blogger would change over to it if they’re happy with the system they have. Logging in with a social media ID is OK, but it kinda seems like a solution to a “problem” no commenter has.

        Dr john, do you know what does Disqus does with the identities it manages? How do they make money?

        • My understanding is that the developers (from Cal) do not charge websites for its use, and that may change. In the meantime, they make money by selling the data they collect. I suggest you use an informed imagination on just what that may be.

          • You’re right, Disqus doesn’t charge sites to use their commenting system.

            Interestingly, Disqus has registered two of my email addresses, though I only gave them one. Not sure where or how they connected the other to me, though it wouldn’t be hard. The 2nd address’s domain name is my name. The point is that I know I never specifically gave it to them. They took it from somewhere.

            Selling email addresses to email marketers might earn a few bux. Disqus can also connect detailed site demographics to the addresses they sell (this guy comments on a local team, that one on national sports, that one on politics, etc.). That would be very helpful to marketers.

            On the other hand, unsolicited email marketing nowadays is an extremely low-return business. 99% of the ISPs out there screen spammers, and end users are quick to bounce any junk that gets through.

            Oddly, one of the most profitable spamming targets left in America is supporters of right-wing politicos. So maybe I’m not going to get bugged at all by my Disqus presence.

  10. Feltbot — great, simple analysis of Landry’s game as a Warrior last season. He struggled against front-line players, yet he was one of the Warriors front-liners while played alongside Lee.

    It was only Curry’s masterful ball handling and passing that got Landry many of his baskets against the better teams in the league, anyway.

  11. If Barnes is going to be out or his performance spotty because of injury the next month, they really should pick up another player if they can, preferably one with experience and who can score.

    Raja Bell is probably over the hill, but if not, he’d be perfect.

    • Hard to say about Bell. In his prime he was a good player and great defender, but he’s 37 now. He’d probably be worth a look, if he was willing to do a tryout with the team. 10 day contract?

      On the other hand, the Ws coaching staff has a lot on their plate without taking on any more. Trying to work in yet another new player could be a distraction.

      • ten day contracts are verboten until around mid-Jan., close to the trading deadline and when non-guaranteed deals like bazemore’s become guaranteed.

        the team will be better served going into an assessment phase with the hopes that one of the rookies or second year players or someone like douglas emerges, given playing opportunities. if the preacher can’t find enough to work with from who’s on the roster, adding another nearly broken down older player won’t really help (playing someone of that ilk postpones needed evaluation on players like NN or green); on the other hand, if they need more substantial reinforcement they’ll be shopping in Jan.

        the brain trust might just be a little less attached to duplicating last season’s record in early Jan. (twelve games above .500) than the fans are. they should not expect to dominate with their schedule in the first two months.

    • Bell is fantasy, of course. He also hasn’t played competitively in about a year. But I like the idea of a veteran with playoff experience who could fill in on a moment’s notice and provide stability, who wouldn’t mind limited minutes otherwise.

  12. warriorsablaze

    Klay is making everything tonight. If he can improve his consistency this season, we’re gonna be the toughest team in the league to guard.

    Looks like Monta had a great game tonight… 7 turnovers is rough, but 32 points and 8 assists on 11-18 shooting is nice.

  13. Uh huh. It’s on.

    Recap after we crush the Clippers souls tomorrow.

  14. We see the underside of the Lakers. Still, I was surprised, especially that the Lakers couldn’t get more perimeter play. Klay, of course, was phenomenal. But it was Lee who presented the greater challenge to their defense, much more than Griffin. Tomorrow night should be interesting.

    The second unit could get away with front court play against the Lakers, but won’t against better teams. I hope they open up more shots.

    OK, who backs up Curry if he gets in foul trouble?

    • warriorsablaze

      I don’t think our second unit is necessarily worse than that of other teams…. which is who they will be facing. There isn’t an obvious go-to scorer, but if MJ gets the rotations right they’ll be fine.

      As far as who backs up Curry, Douglas had a nice game tonight, but in critical situations, Andre will be the facilitator with Barnes, Lee, Klay, and either Bogut or Green depending on the situation. I’m not worried about a “Curry back up” in the least.

    • so far, after a single game sample size, douglas will get an opportunity to establish himself as the main bench sub (not re-inserting another starter which will also be done) for curry. if his ball handling breaks down, and the preacher doesn’t think NN is ready matched against starters, iguodala and thompson fill in through Dec. shopping starts in Jan. when four reserves were on the court for the first time, thompson was the glue guy left with them until the starters rotated back in. with him, douglas, green on the court the ball moved o.k.

    • They probably couldn’t get the kind of player I’m talking about, certainly not on the cheap, but he’d be a good insurance policy and could make a difference in many games the first part of the season, if not later.

      It’s not much, but I was impressed with Raja Bell the first and only game he played for the Warriors. He came over with VladRad from Charlotte in the emergency trade for SJax. He had a wrist injury that required surgery, but he decided to play any way in the game @ Boston when the Warriors could only suit up eight. He said he hated to see the team play shorthanded.

      He scored 11, including 3-3 from the arc. What I most remember is his talk with Anthony Randolph. AR got benched for defense flubs, and Raja gave him a stern talk on the bench. AR went back in and performed.

      That was years ago, of course.


  15. Bad night for Monta. . . .

    • warriorsablaze

      7 turnovers is ugly, but I don’t think you can call a 32 point, 8 assist, 4 reb., and 2 steal game, while going 11-18 from the field, a “bad night.” He more than made up for the TO’s and they got the win.

    • He had the second best fantasy night in the NBA, next to rookie Michael Carter Williams. Klay was number three.

    • Like all 5 of Monta’s previous NBA coaches, Carlyle used Monta to initiate Dallas’ offense last night. A lot. Drive and dish, PnR, PicknPop. Warp the defense, then take advantage by any means possible. I didn’t watch the game, but I’ll bet most of Ellis’ turnovers came from passes, not from losing the handle. As he gains more experience with his teammates, that should become less problematic.

      Add Monta’s assists to Calderon’s 11, and the Dallas O looks damn scary. Calderon himself shot only 1-7. If he had shot his average, the game could have been a complete blowout.

      As a fine, experienced PG, Calderon will adapt his game to playing alongside Monta’s offensive relentlessness. It’s going to be interesting to see how that plays out.

  16. warriorsablaze

    Of course, the Lakers are terrible, but we have a long history of playing down to our competition… so it was nice to blow out a team we’re supposed to blow out for once.

    Hope we can get up for the Clips tomorrow night… the only team I hate more than the Lakers.

    • This was, of course, a very fine start. I don’t remember their routing anyone last season and giving the starters a break.

      Our defense was good, but LA really broke down fairly easily.

  17. Gasol on the game last night (from ESPN):

    “We didn’t really create any energy for ourselves. There was no communication, and on a back-to-back you just got to do that. And we didn’t do it. We were stagnant on both ends of the floor, we were not active enough. So, that’s what’s going to happen when we do those things.”

    Give the Warriors credit, but it’s not surprising the Lakers could fall apart so quickly, given their youth, their odd roster, their lack of playing time together. And they really fell apart everywhere.

    Gasol wasn’t that sharp himself. Bogut I suppose fronted him nicely, but Gasol can drive around him, as I believe he did once, or draw him out and make shots. But also the rest of the team didn’t set up Gasol that well and there wasn’t good coordination on the floor.

    Tonight should be a good test, the Warriors coming off winning in a rout, the Clippers losing in one. I still have the same question—will the Warriors be able to keep up in scoring and will the second unit produce enough to give the starters some rest.

  18. Awesome Warriors offense!

    FG: 53.5%
    3-pt: 55.6%
    FT: 78.3%

    The Ws starting 5 are going to be harder to stop this year than last. Iggy and a healthy Bogut make a world of difference. Especially Iggy. He makes his teammates better.

    Among non starters, Speights was 2-10. He averages a whole lot better than that, and we will see better from him in the future. I was also surprised to see him play D and kill for rebounds – it’s not his rep. Maybe the team ethos is rubbing off on him.

    Green shot 3-4. In a nice change, he finished well at the rim. The rest of Green’s game was as awesome as always. He was everywhere, stopping guards, playing rim D, and grabbing 7 rebounds in 19 minutes, one short of DLee’s total in 27 minutes. Green did all that against weaker competition, of course, but it’s still an impressive result.

    Douglas is a bigtime scorer, very quick and clever with the ball. He even had 6 assists, equal to Curry. Douglas is also a tremendous, high-energy defender. I had to keep double-checking his jersey number to confirm I wasn’t looking at Green in two places.

    With O’Neil, Green and Douglas on the floor, the 2nd team D looks better than the starting 5. Add Bazemore and that is some World Class Nasty. A Boatload of Badness by the Bay.

    I think the hat said something about the Ws 2nd team being mediocre. They may have looked like that in the preseason, but against weak competition last night they sure didn’t. They have a very different mix of strengths than the starting 5, but they’re not bad. And last night they looked a whole lot better than NBA-average.

    The 2nd team’s performance wasn’t surprising given the competition (those poor Lackers fans, boohoo!), but I’m really looking forward to seeing how well they handle tonight’s “elite” team. I think they’re going to be fine. Very different from the starting 5, but just fine.

    • speights has a career f.g. pct. of .47. he doesn’t shoot 3’s or make frequent visits to the free throw line, so unless he’s playing on an inept offense, there’s no justification for him hogging his team’s attempts when he hits .47 of them, much less .20. opponents leave him open because his mediocre scoring efficiency doesn’t hurt them. today’s defenses generally concede areas to 2 pt. attempts beyond the paint, and few players make .50 or more of those shots and force the defense to cover. d.lee’s career f.g. pct. is .535, nearly all 2 pt. attempts, but how often do we see him go off on gunning sprees ?

      • Good point. Why not give up “the worst shot in basketball” if it means blanketing all the more deadly spots?

        On the other hand, Speights had 3 assists, lots of boards and a couple of nice drives last night. In other words, against some admittedly awful competition, he showed Landry’s competent rim play plus better hands, better mobility and some teamplay smarts that were quite rare from Landry. The rap on Speights has always been that he had skills but didn’t work hard enough. Not a problem last night.

        • speights’ present team is substantially different than his previous homes, so we’ll put him on probation for a couple of months. his best chance is right now, with Mr. Barnes’ minutes erased. we really need to see how everyone does against a range of opponents — LA/bussies generated 50+ missed shots and didn’t seem inclined to contest the boards, so several woeyrs looked strong in that dept., for example.

  19. One interesting Q about the team now is what happens with Barnes? Green has been the first player off the bench recently, playing at Barnes’ spots. Green’s game doesn’t look as pretty as Barnes’, but he wreaks havoc defensively all over the floor, handles the ball well enough to play point forward, passes well, and has shot well. Barnes? No havoc, no passing, no handle, so-so shooting. He’s quicker in the open court and he may finish at the rim better. But that’s about it.

    After Lee went down in the playoffs, there was a lot of silly speculation about his value to the team. But Barnes doesn’t have the proven upside Lee does, so it’s fair to ask.

    When Barnes returns, what’s his role? Are there game situations where Barnes could be expected to have more impact than Green? If so, what are they?

    Assuming Barnes returns to action in the next month or so, how long will it take him to come up to speed with his teammates? Coming off the bench, he’ll essentially be playing with an entirely new team, not the group he started with all last year. Will Jackson sub Barnes in before Green, or after? I wonder.

    • warriorsablaze

      Definitely among the biggest questions for the season. I have no idea how Barnes fits in right now. I prefer Green, but he needs to maintain some level of offensive usefulness to avoid being a Dom McGuire type.

      Barnes should have the most success as a stretch 4 in a situation where we need to press for offense. He can fill lanes and get to the rim in transition, but isn’t very useful in the half-court. He can always get his shot off, however, so maybe he will pull a Klay and start sinking those turnaround J’s from the high post.

      I don’t see him getting more than 25 mins per unless he has made some sort of leap he didn’t show in his limited preseason play.

      • Let’s talk about a healthy Barnes and Mark Jackson’s predilections. There are 96 minutes at SG/SF and 70 of those are for Thompson and Iguodala. Barnes will play, conservatively, 30+ minutes in Jackson’s rotations, 20 at SF and 10 at PF. Green will fight for the table scraps, but the other house cats are pretty hungry also.

        • DJ, there’s no doubt that Barnes will get some PT, I just wonder how much and under what game conditions. 30 minutes seems unlikely to me. You could be right, but not because of his performance. Not unless his game improved a whole lot in the offseason.

          Last year the team’s marketing department frankly over-hyped Barnes, maybe because they needed someone to point to as the (literal) model for the New Improved Warriors. He also got a lot of PT that his performance didn’t earn. If he hadn’t gotten injured, Brandon Rush would have taken at least half of Barnes’ PT no matter which started.

          This year, the team has every reason to expect a full house for every game. No marketing hype necessary. If they felt like anointing a model/spokesperson this year anyway, it wouldn’t be Barnes, it would be one of the current starters. It’s Curry’s team. Iggy’s more representative of the “New Warriors.” Lee’s really good in front of a mic.

          Green spent most of last season nursing a sore knee, and didn’t really get his shooting together until the playoffs, when he did fine. He made mistakes, but not many stupid ones. One thing Green never did was to simply disappear on court. Even when his shot wasn’t falling, he consistently impacted games more than any non-scorer normally could. And this year Green is lighter, fitter, shooting well, etc., and still creates mayhem on D.

          I don’t know these people, I just see their results. Barnes often disappeared last year. Adequate-at-best D and rebounding. Shooting no better than Green’s recent shooting.

          Green is a highlight reel for hardworking junkyard players. In comparison, Barnes is a clothing model. He’ll still get PT, but the Ws don’t have any reason to give him gifts. They don’t even need to hype him this year, unless it’s to enhance his trade value. I’m guessing a max of 10-15 minutes a game, with NONE in tight games.

          No marketing hype necessary this year.

          • Barnes’ trajectory was fine for a rookie. I won’t dispute that the Rush injury was a great misfortune, and he would have taken many a minute from Klay, also. And from Green.

            Green was more mature coming in. This should not be an either/or discussion. Coach should be able to use them both. But there’s that thing—the coach’s view, and his responsibility to the organization. I think Barnes will get major minutes if healthy.

            The Green of the Denver series was very special. Vs. the Spurs, back to season averages across the board. Not so good.

            Health — to both.

    • four year ncaa totals for d.green — 46.6 pct. shooting (36.1 in 3’s), 68.6 from the foul line, 7.6 boards per game.

      two year ncaa totals for barnes — 43.1 pct. shooting (34.9 in 3’s), 73.4 from the foul line, 5.5 boards per game.

      should be clear to us by now who handles the ball more securely, sees the court and anticipates better. much of last season green played with a dinged knee, and he’s made other physical improvements, so combined with his court sense, his disadvantage relative to Mr.Barnes in speed has been narrowed. green’s college coach reminded us that he constantly improved and expanded his game, so we shouldn’t be surprised if his shooting this year proves better than a year ago.

      • warriorsablaze

        This is why I always have said Green’s shooting last season should improve. His college numbers suggest he can score more efficiently than he did last season.

        Then again, the NBA is a different beast. Barnes’ athleticism allows him to get off shots and create scoring opportunities that Green can’t at this level (but could in college). Barnes didn’t make the shots at a high enough level last season, but he certainly has a higher ceiling than Green if he can figure it out. At the moment, Green is definitely the better player… it remains to be seen if that will be the case 2 seasons from now.

        • Totally agree. Barnes is an awesomely gifted athlete, even among the elites of the NBA. It gives him potential Green doesn’t have. We saw flashes of it last year. His dunk against Anthony Randolph was fantastic, not possible for the majority of players.

          Not knowing the guys personally, it seems the biggest sure advantage Green has over Barnes is just more high-level playing time under a great coach. Barnes could improve a lot this year and in the future.

  20. Not sure about my new avatar pic.

    If you squint real hard there’s still a hat in the picture, but it looked a whole lot better when life-sized. In my living room. Twangin’ at me.

    Any votes from you-all?

  21. warriorsablaze

    I can’t tell you how much I hate the Clippers. Just complaining and flopping all over the place. We lost because of our turnovers, but the flopping coupled with the officiating was frustrating to watch.

    Chris Paul was absolutely dominant… helped by 17ft’s on many questionable calls. Bummer game.

  22. Even with the Warriors going big with Bogut, JON, and Speights, the Clippers shot 49 percent from the field. Where was the defense? And the Warriors couldn’t keep the Clippers off the offensive glass as Jordan obtained as many as the Warriors for the game and had six more offensive rebounds than the Warriors.

    Offensively, the Warriors turned the ball over 6 more times than the Warriors with Curry committing 11 all by himself.

    The Warriors don’t have enough players in their rotation to give the Warriors extra possessions than good opponents. In this game, the Warriors had 12 less possessions than the Clippers.

    It’s scary when the Warriors shoot 52 percent from the field and lose by 11. So what’s going to happen when they shoot less than that?

    And the Warriors not having players having the ability to get to foul line very often resulted in the Clippers taking 17 more foul shots. As I have said, this roster is very flawed which will be more exposed if they make the playoffs.

    And even if Lee should have played center in the fourth as Felty contends, such would not have overcome the above deficiencies.

    There are stats that show how many extra wins Jack and Landry provided the Warriors that far exceeded the projections for Douglas, JON, and Speights.

    To argue that Speights is better than Landry when Speights has shot 4-15 in two games is simply folly as is the claim that he is far superior defender, especially when opponents have shot a high percentage this game with him on the court.

    Overall, the bench is very weak.

    The only hope is that Barnes will return and help. Maybe so, but not likely against good teams.

    • Leaving Iguodala out of your comparison, as well as the reasonable supposition of improvement from Thompson, Barnes and Green makes this a slanted post, especially regarding wins.
      I agree on the defensive rebounding though.
      The Dubs were tied when Bogut left 1st quarter.
      The wing defense was very poor.
      The turnovers by Curry and Green were killers.
      If coach won’t put a defender on Paul in this game, he never will.

  23. Give them credit for not getting blown out.

    The turnovers were indeed ugly, but someone explain the offensive plan, if there was one, especially the first half. A lot of the time the offense looked incoherent, and I don’t see much difference between turning it over trying to make something happen and just stalling and not getting a good shot off.

    They have to show several options early. Klay can’t take on Reddick? Why didn’t they run more plays for him, screens, etc.? How many touches did he get first half? Bogut did show some offense tonight, and a couple of plays trying to hit him driving might have opened things up. Both should open up the court for Lee and Curry.

    Neither Bogut nor Lee looked good on the boards, though this is where Bogut is supposed to step up. And more defensive boards could have initiated some breaks.