The Steve Kerr Era: Open Thread Two

[I'm out on the golf course burnishing my resume.]

300 Responses to The Steve Kerr Era: Open Thread Two

  1. I wonder who it was that leaked about the Warriors chasing after Blatt. I feel like this organization does a terrible job of keeping things private. Or maybe they do it all in the name of PR and not actually “getting their man”. Beats me.

    Are the greens firm?

    • pursuing Blatt was in the form of Kerr arranging a meeting during an airport layover. any account of Kerr’s activity, it is more than reasonable for us to assume, is very deliberate on the part of the lacobites. they like their brand getting mentioned. at least Blatt was straightforward with the Israeli media and told them no one has made him an offer.

      • cosmicballoon

        Blatt would be an exciting hire. He would create a spectacular offense for Curry, Klay and Co.

  2. The Spurs and Heat are two organizations the Lacob Warriors will never be like:

    http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/knicks/lawrence-dolan-learn-spurs-heat-execs-article-1.1821366

    • I’d put the Rockets on that list too. Another team where almost nobody actually knows who the owner is and lets the GM do what he needs to do.

  3. Riley was on the postgame show last night. He said Nedovic and Kuzmic had a long way to go, would probably only play minor minutes the coming season, and that maybe only Kuzmic would stick around, only because he is big.

    Again, who scouted those guys?

    • There is this speculation about Kirk and Nedovic:

      “And if anyone is interested, Warriors Asst. GM Kirk Lacob was at the 2013 adidas EUROCAMP and that’s how the Warriors most likely became aware of Nedovic.”

      http://thegoldenstatewarriors.tumblr.com/post/54077053995

      I recall père Joe going down to Santa Cruz early in the season to watch his pick play, showing perhaps special interest?

    • While the best teams in the league are looking for mobile, talented PFs to man the center position (Ibaka, Duncan, Diaw, Bosh), Joe Lacob is fixated on big stiffs.

      As I tweeted, Lacob is fighting the last war, and Bogut is his Maginot line.

      • One of the biggest weaknesses a leader can have is not being able to change course even when they know the prevailing winds are changing.

        • warriorsablaze

          The last two lottery picks were used on wings, not centers… and Kuzmic was a late second round Euro-stash picked after we got a guard.

          Kerr, a supposed Lacob puppet, has been talking about an uptempo offense and getting a stretch 4.

          Myers was on the radio recently talking about Dray improving his 3 point shot for exactly that role.

          Seems like they are changing course to me. The only difference being they likely see 4-out with Bogut being better than 4-out with Lee. All Lee had to do was develop a 3 point shot to be a real monster in this league, and he’s failed to do so. If you can hit from 18 (which he used to be able to do), you can hit from 23 if you work for it. It’s Lee that’s failed to get with the new NBA style of play.

          • ” If you can hit from 18 (which he used to be able to do), you can hit from 23 if you work for it.”

            I don’t know about that. Lee’s shot is already too flat from 18 feet, let alone 23. You’re right though, obviously, a 3pt shot would be huge.

          • warriorsablaze

            True, but I believe that a large part of shooting success is touch, which is a bit abstract but different from form… as evidenced by Curry being able to hit all kinds of wild shots even when he isn’t able to use his normal form.

            Up until this past season, Lee had a pretty good touch… The mechanics are easier to fix and he’s had several years to do it… so it’s kind of a bummer that he hasn’t.

        • I have on numerous occasions heard about Lee working on a three point shot over the summer or during training camp. Is it he who can’t shoot it, or is it Lacob’s rookie coaches who won’t let him?

          cf. Mo Speights.

          • Felt, come on. He can’t shoot that shot. There’s no way with the trajectory on his “jump shot” that he’d have a prayer of making shots behind the arc.

          • I don’t know whether he can shoot it or not, just repeating what I’ve heard.

          • I remember Lee dismissing those rumors fairly quickly last summer when training camp started.

          • warriorsablaze

            I don’t buy the idea that he couldn’t make the small adjustments necessary to develop that shot…

            Nor do I believe that he was somehow forbidden to take it. MJax certainly wasn’t going to make it a key part of the offense, but forbid it? Not really Jackson’s style.

          • You must have missed last season. It was obvious that Mokur was proscribed from shooting 3s, and Lee from shooting any outside shot whatsoever.

          • warriorsablaze

            Your analysis is generally too good to just go and make stuff up. Mokur 31 3-point attempts this past season. His previous season high was 10.

            It’s only “obvious” when your bias is stronger than your research.

  4. Helpful resource for anyone interested:

    http://www.accountingweb.com/topic/golf-just-good-walk-spoiled-or-premier-business-tool

    “Not only is golf an excellent place to network and to build relationships with clients and prospects, some fans view a round of golf as a window into the soul of a fellow player, both in business and in life.

    “97% of executives view golf with a business associate as a way to establish a close relationship

    “92% use golf as a way to make business contacts.”

  5. cosmicballoon

    I’m pretty sure the Knicks are making a bigger mistake hiring Fisher than the Warriors made with Kerr. +/- 2 years for him?

  6. One thing that cannot be debated when discussing the potentiality for greatness in the future in regards a sports franchise is the need for a great ownership/management team. As this applies to the Warriors, there’s no question that mistakes have been made in the early going, but this also accentuates a point that shouldn’t be lost, and that’s that this group, starting at the very top, is new to all this. They’ve been at the controls, as a “team”, for less than 4 years, which makes them “kids” when compared to the vast majority of other ownership/management teams in not just the NBA, but in all of sports.

    Time is always the truest barometer when evaluating competency, it will be interesting 6 years from now, when this group completes their first decade of ownership, to look back and see what the “new” Golden State Warriors have accomplished in their quest to become an elite organization. (I’ve linked a couple of noteworthy videos below)

    http://www.nba.com/warriors/video/2014/04/22/WarriorsSiteTalk1mp4-3246427/

    http://www.nba.com/warriors/video/2014/05/22/WarriorsSBJAwardWEBmp4-3278772/

  7. If Steve Kerr wants help with offense from a coach with experience, of course he could bring on Nelson for a year. In fact something similar was suggested here:

    http://bluemanhoop.com/2014/05/22/steve-kerr-has-a-lot-to-draw-from-to-build-warriors-offensive-system/

    HaHaHa.

    • warriorsablaze

      Why would Nellie come out of retirement to help Kerr as an assistant coach? Especially for an org that sent him to that retirement.

  8. Spurs are apparently hiring Ettore Messina. I guess they got their man. Who did we get?

    • I’m reading this as a signal that this is Pop’s last year.

    • Buford’s latest statement in response to the rumours — “we have not had one conversation with anyone about a coaching position for next season.”

  9. Curry arguably one of the best shooters in NBA always brings guide hand (left hand) forward with his shooting hand. How many shooters do that?

    • Curry doesn’t have a conventional shot. But it works for him.

    • have seen a few good jump shooters use something similar through the years — one place to check would be video of his father.

    • look at reggie miller’s shot — significant contribution from that left hand. the best shooters have usually had very different form when examined in detail, but share general characteristics, such as a smooth, consistent release.

    • (Arguably? Me thinks without a doubt.) Agree with Frank and Moto, both hands (and the ball on all 10 fingers, not on the palm). And like Meshery says (and Feltbot) imagine the ball and yourself gently going over the front of the rim. It looks like to me like Curry is shooting the ball with all 10 fingers upon release, though mostly with the 5 fingers on his right hand, the left 5 fingers mostly guiding.

  10. High tech, VC moguls aren’t only screwing up the NBA. They’ve also taken on public education:

    http://capitalandmain.com/vergara-v-californias-corporate-heart/

    The Bill Gates Foundations is another example.

    • tbh, I’m not sure how I feel about either of these issues.

      And I take the issue of VCs in the NBA on a case by case basis.

      • Actually, I haven’t studied either deeply myself. But in both cases you have people with lots of money and no professional experience saying attractive things without knowing what they’re doing (cf. GSW) and, in this case, inflicting more harm than good. It’s stuff like this that makes me react so strongly to what I see in the NBA.

        The Gates foundation has come under heavy—and valid—criticism for its assumptions, its methods, its system of measurements, and its findings. Their definition of writing itself is especially narrow and suspect. But, as the article says, they’ve had heavy influence.

        All these movements base their arguments on a market model of education, which basically measures schools in their ability to get students in the workforce (and I seriously doubt any of these guys really care about or use what academic hacks are now calling “critical thinking”). Lost here is any other purpose for education—developing cultural foundation, individual awareness, civic understanding and values, etc. And so many of the critiques are heavily stat driven, without any real sense of what they are measuring or what it means.

        That there are crappy teachers I don’t doubt, but changing the tenure system won’t solve the problem. Part of the problem is finding a good way to assess teachers, and finding competent people to do this. In many cases this is done by administrations and even private concerns, both distant from education.

        One of the problems of the No Student Left Behind movement is that it created standardized tests to measure improvement. The burden fell heaviest on schools and students at risks, who basically were given rote learning so they could pass those tests, at the expense of meaningful instruction. In other words they were handicapped by the system that was supposed to improve them.

        If you want good teachers, you don’t threaten but support them, give them status, reward them, and make the job worthwhile and attractive so good people apply for jobs—and that isn’t happening.

        If you want to improve student performance, you use the money to rebuild communities as well as to improve the workplace—job opportunity and meaningful work—so they have incentive to do well.

        That schools themselves are misguided and need to be shaken up I don’t dispute at all.

        • You do make very good points whose validity can’t be denied, and yet…

          As someone who was tricked into an education by appeal to my sense of competition, I’m not as put off by standardized curriculums and standardized testing as most. The goal is to raise the base competency. It seems to me that giving basic tools and teaching that goals can be achieved is the best way to do that. Those with talent take that and run.

          And as Gates says, this is just the “common core.” The better students will be exposed to more.

          Also agree with his point that he’s not trying to dictate, he’s trying to experiment.

          As for teacher tenure, I again have mixed feelings. I don’t think anyone believes it’s a complete solution. But certain ideas appeal. 1) Teachers should be hopeful and idealistic, and those qualities tend to disappear with age! 2) I’m not wed to the idea that anyone deserves job security. Teachers (hopefully) have the tools to find all manner of jobs if forced to move on. 3) As mentioned above, I’m not appalled by standardization nor standard testing in grade school. Nor the evaluation of teachers by those results.

          • I guess I have mixed feelings about tenure. It was great for my family as my mom was able to get tenure in Palo Alto and had a great job for a long time as a result.

            It was not so great for me in my academic career, as I didn’t get tenure, and that pretty much spelled the end of that career for me.

            As for the standardized tests, also mixed feelings. It makes sense on the face of it, but the whole system can be gamed and used for ill purposes (see the Atlanta faculty cheating scandal the last few years).

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlanta_Public_Schools_cheating_scandal

          • This is the downside of tenure: it’s being used simply not to hire teachers in the first place. I don’t know what’s going on in secondary schools, but I know of several cases where beginning teachers are sent packing after less than a year, which makes no sense at all, as it takes time to develop as a teacher and you need to stay put to do that.

            I do know what’s going on in the colleges and universities. To save money, schools simply aren’t giving tenure to many—after so many years you take off and start again elsewhere—or they rely on poorly paid contingent workers who aren’t on a tenure track, 78% by one count in the NY Times (my case—and this number needs qualification).

            http://www.alternet.org/education/academias-indentured-servants?paging=off

    • rgg,

      great post. happen to know wall street very much interested in making all education private. Making it a profitable venture. Lots of government $$$ available for siphoning. One has to watch their school districts from de-funding their own programs to give to their benefactors. Federal monies too.

      One has to look at our medical system to see the future of American education. Expensive and bad outcomes relative to the rest of the industrialized world.

      1. Charter schools have not improved education.
      2. The Profit Motive Perverts the Goals of Education.
      3. Lower performing children left behind.

  11. You make good points here rgg. It does seem that Gates, Booker and his ilk in Newark (as well as Zuckerberg’s $100M) have a rather utilitarian agenda regarding the role of public education. Suspect there’s a bit of that “liberal college professors are inflicting their views on gullible young folks” here too, though Paul Ryan’s mentor @ Miami/Ohio is seemingly disregarded as evidence that non-liberal college professors can influence young folks too.

  12. @10

    The problem with standardized tests is that they will break down any subject into simple parts that can be measured on a seemingly objective scale that can be used for comparison across the board. What this most means is multiple choice tests that can be quickly scored and compared. I don’t know how far it went with NSLB, but the plan was to use results to measure student improvement and make decisions on funding to schools and teacher retention. That resulted in teachers spending most of their time teaching to the tests—rote memorization and simple skill drills divorced from any real meaning or application. The further down you went in the schools, the worse it got. Schools became Skinner boxes. Smarter students waste a lot of time and money learning how to trick the tests, such as the SAT, without learning anything useful.

    And here comes the comparison with the NBA. FOs and pundits are spending more time studying raw stats to the exclusion of many qualities and factors that measure a player’s true abilities, with an eye to determining player acquisition and strategy. We’ve been discussing this one here for some time.

    Standardized tests will always reduce a subject into discrete—and dubious—parts without any real understanding of their value or relationship. Students don’t learn how to read, but how to pass reading tests. Even something as complex as writing can be reduced to formula writing, where students follow a set pattern to pass some kind of test. The SAT writing portion is a good example. These are graded quickly in masses, and graders follow simple, obvious guidelines. I’ve never graded them, though could have, but I hear they are horrible. Many schools I’ve taught at have or had exit essay exams, however, and I have graded these. Necessarily we teach to this test, students follow formulas, and we grade according to a checklist of simple criteria. The whole purpose of writing and its real value is just ignored.

    I’m not clear how far it has gone in the schools, but there is a decided preference for “informational” writing over any other, which reflects the way our culture has gone. That knowledge equals information is a common belief accepted without scrutiny. This preference also fits nicely into the desires of the computer companies who want to get us all hooked up to their devices and sites. MOOCs—online courses for sale—are part of a recent debate on privatization, with potential to make someone—not the schools—a lot of money.

    What I suspect has most been lost is the ability to think abstractly. Also lost is the ability to reflect on any set of values. I see a great range of students, and it’s getting harder to get them to discuss the idea “All men are created equal.” It should raise debates, but I can’t get them. Most simply don’t know what it means or might imply. And it doesn’t require any special skill or sophisticated knowledge to understand the notion. It has to be a shared feeling they have grown up with and felt on some level. The reason, I suspect, is because the notion has been abandoned in our culture. The message they’re getting in schools is that have to pass tests to move on in their lives, and, implicitly, these determine their value to society and their sense of self worth.

    Meanwhile, we’re seeing a rash of shootings in the schools—again—which suggests greater disturbance the society and schools are ill equipped to handle.

    • I share most of your sentiments, simply playing devils advocate.

      It doesn’t seem to me that anyone has definitive answers to public education, which is why I don’t frown on those like Bill Gates that want to experiment. Particularly when investing their own money.

      • I only spent about 20 minutes on the Gates site, so only have impressions, but it made me cringe. I saw procedures without purpose or any sense of values.

        I assume they got educators of some sort, but my sense is they bypassed over a century of discussion and debate about education, much of it vital. What I do know is that they ignored some of the best and most engaged minds in the field, because these guys are now spending (wasting) time refuting common core.

        They did not try to persuade the education schools and teachers, and persuasion is the essence of education. Instead they went public, and the states seized common core as a mandate to be passed top down. This is always a problem.

        Education has become part of our national insecurity and political biases. There’s an air of hysteria. One task force fears the educational system is a threat to national security:

        http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesmarshallcrotty/2012/03/26/7-signs-that-americas-educational-decline-is-jeopardizing-its-national-security/

        Which brings me back to my suspicions about the NBA. They’re spending a ton of money on those Sportvu cameras and computers. Also owners and GMs flock to the Sloan conference with their “experts.” Bypassed are the coaches themselves. This looks shaky.

        But our beloved owner, after four years, has finally seen the need to bring an experienced coach on the staff—somewhere.

        Education is a mess however, but in more complicated ways than I think anyone realizes. I don’t think you can really make significant improvements unless you improve the economy and the culture. The horse has to lead the cart. And a lot of educators and schools aren’t doing such a hot job here themselves.

    • If anyone’s curious, a thoughtful critique of common core (scroll down a bit) from a guy who knows what he’s talking about:

      http://mikerosebooks.blogspot.com/2014/03/reflections-on-standards-teaching-and.html

    • geraldmcgrew

      I start here: No educational approach, public or private, has been successful while suffering from a lack of adequate funding. Throwing money at the problem may not be enough, but it is a prerequisite.

      First, ramp up the funding of our public education. Then we can figure out best educational methods (many great ideas out there already). And throwing money at public education will also stimulate this anemic economy.

      • It’s a 20 year old stat I doubt has changed for the better, that California spends more on its prison system than the UC and CSU college systems combined. The disparity in part reflects policy—three strikes—but also the massive changes the state has undergone the past decades and a general breakdown in common order, neither of which has been addressed well.

        According to one recent study, California ranks 49th. in spending per student K-12 (the study reflects regional cost of living but not Brown’s proposed changes) and is fifth worst in the percentage of state and local taxable resources spent on K-12 education.

        Schools could be improved by very simple changes, one of which is to reduce average class size, where I believe California ranks poorly as well. But overall state numbers don’t reflect the disparity in size and expenditures between rich and poor districts. My son went to schools in property tax rich Cupertino, and I was floored by the size of his classes. It’s much worse in poorer districts.

        Another way to improve education is to improve the status of teachers, which has never been high in this country but is high in many other countries, along with giving them more authority and autonomy in making decisions. But that would require a massive shift in our culture and policies that few are prepared to make.

        • As a consequence, I heard that the UC system is now admitting more out-of-state students than in-state. It brings in more money. They’ve been forced to do it. Sad.

  13. AW tweets Blatt is leaving for the NBA—somewhere.

  14. Virtually all good shooters have their five fingers on.shooting hand spread apart.

  15. Everything that J. Lacob and MJax know or think they know (they really deserved each other) has been invalidated by the Spurs organization, its roster, its coaching, and their play in the finals. I hope Lacob is taking notes, but doubt it. I hope MJax, if he’s making comparisons, is embarrassed, but doubt that as well.

    • rgg, yep! and JLacob, in the vein of Mr. Feltbot’s observation, is still living out the CBoozer destruction of We Believe in the 2nd round.

    • cosmicballoon

      This is not just a Joe Lacob/MJax problem. Popovich’s offense has beaten the systemic ISO problem the NBA has suffered through since the Jordan years. Players coming up decided they wanted to be like Mike which led to an isolation brand of basketball. Iverson’s dominance as an individual creator sure didn’t help. Carmelo, Jamal Crawford and JR Smith are the three worst offenders I can think of off the top of my head.

      After the ISO age of Jordan, came the 7-second Suns who passed and scored like crazy, but didn’t win a championship because they didn’t have a coherent defensive philosophy. Popovich has brought together both spreading the floor, taking open threes and a strong defensive system. I would say its a return to how basketball is supposed to be played, but it’s actually innovation because the three point shot is the central focus of the offense, whence in the past (before Jordan), two pointers and layups were the central goal.

      We’ll see if other coaches take note and continue to build on what Pop has built, or if the NBA remains an ISO league.

      All that said, the Warriors played the incorrect style for their roster last season, thus the MJax firing is justified, IMO.

      • Not Kobe?

        • cosmicballoon

          A Jordan immitator and now irrelevant because of injury and age. He brought nothing new to the game, nor does he define an era.

          LeBron will be known as the guy who defined the point forward, but has a tarnished legacy because of all the championship losses (He will be 2 for 5 after this season!)

      • “Coherent defensive philosophy’? Possibly a factor. A bigger factor was how the Suns got shafted. Amare Stoudemire and Boris Diaw both got suspended by leaving the bench when Robert Horry of San Antonio clobbered Steve Nash into the stands. This was after Bruce Bowen kneed Nash in the nuts in the previous game. No suspensions on San Antonio. Questionable calls all around and in a tight series most likely the deciding factor in the Suns getting ousted. An effective “coherent defensive philosophy” in this series would have to have included the refs and the league.

  16. This should be fun:

    “Los Angeles Clippers owner Donald Sterling’s team of lawyers has hired four private investigation firms to dig up dirt on the NBA’s former and current commissioners and its 29 other owners, said a person familiar with Sterling’s legal strategy.”

    http://sports.yahoo.com/news/ap-source-donald-sterling-hires-040356789–nba.html

  17. Hope everyone on this site now realizes THATk. Leonard is so much more skillful and better than Thompson on both sides of the ball. Simply put- Thompson is ok but Warriors would have been far superior if they had drafted Leonard and not Thompson. It may mean the difference someday of being able to make the NBA Final round.

    • I don’t realize that. He’s playing with 3 HOF players and a ton of good teammates. And he has a great coach who puts him in a position to succeed.

      How good would Klay be on the Spurs?

  18. Nellie after drafting Mike Dunleavy realized he made a mistake and called him a role player. What would he call Thompson?

    And to think the Warriors could have drafted Amari S. instead. Ouch.

    • Your take on Thompson is stupefying. For an 11th pick, he’s far exceeded expectations.

      Barnes on the other hand…

    • Nellie drafted Mike Dunleavy? That’s possibly the worst thing I’ve ever seen him accused of.

      What he would call Klay Thompson is a small forward. An AllStar small forward.

    • Frank, consider yourself fortunate, apparently you missed the entire montgomery coaching tenure at GS. dunleavyjr. had been in the n.b.a. for four full seasons when nelson returned for the ’06-07 season. when dunjr. was drafted, nelson was working for el cubano. coming to GS, nelson identified davis as the key guy, with biedrins, richardson next in significance, ellis a promising project.

      • He traded Dunleavy within months of setting eyes on him.

        • And a great trade it was (best trade Mullin ever made).

          Dunleavy Jr. and Troy Murphy for Stack Jack, and Al Harrington. Led to the ‘We Believe Years’, and yes it was fun while it lasted.

      • Do you guys remember if Nellie cross-matched Bedrins on Boozer in the 2nd round We Believe playoff run?

    • if you missed the 2002 draft, when dunjr. was picked at #3, that was the year woeyrs partisans hoped to snag Ming, who of course went to Hou with the first pick. when GS took their second round pick, dunjr.’s teammate boozer, who would be an effective woeyr opponent for much of his career, was still on the board.

      what was nelson doing ? he’d traded the 2002 Dal first round pick a year earlier, including it with t.hardaway, d.harvey, juwan howard and getting abdul wahad, avery johnson, la frentz, and van exel.

      • I remember that trade! The best player in it was Van Exel. Formed a lethal 4th Q backcourt partner with Nash. LaFrentz was a major bust. Like Lee potentially, injuries took a lot from his game.

      • an earlier occasion for nelson to trade a first round pick for an established starter was how Sikma ended up in Mil to finish his career. he’d been Sea’s highest paid player. Mil’s draft pick in turn was traded to NY, who used it on none other than the lesser Jackson currently employed by abc/espn for the finals. NY switched its own much higher first round pick with Sea, who sent gerald henderson to NY to get the number five pick in the draft.

        NY and Sea switching places ended up bringing regrets to both parties later, despite jackson gaining rookie of the year and maintaining his hometown favorite status for NY, at least for a few seasons (he became trade fodder to get rivers and charles smith from the sterlings). Sea used that NY pick on pippen, just to trade him on to Chi for olden polynice and future draft considerations. both NY and Sea could follow pippen’s career with fantasies of what might have been.

        • One thing Nellie was absolutely great at was trading picks for good vets when he knew his team would finish better than expected.

          • Don’t forget he also stole Dirk from Milwaukee for those future NBA legends, Robt. Traylor & Pat Garrity.

  19. Haaretz on Blatt’s choices. I like the way they describe the new coach:

    “Blatt may receive additional offers now that he has left Maccabi, but at this point Golden State may be a better fit for his stated criteria. The Warriors won 51 games last season and have a talented starting five – (which includes young superstar Steph Curry) – but still have plenty of room for improvement. They have an affable, intelligent new coach in Kerr, but need to toughen up in order to get deeper into the playoffs.”

    http://www.haaretz.com/life/sports/.premium-1.598581

  20. Jerry West tells Harrison Barnes the NBA is about competing.

    http://www.ibabuzz.com/warriors/

    Pretty sure that’s what I’ve been telling him.

    • cosmicballoon

      That is the best news I have heard all year. Barnes was told he needs to compete. Hopefully he takes it to heart and comes into next season with a chip on his shoulder. Kudos Feltbot, you read Barnes like a book.

      Also, it sounds like Kerr really is going to get away from an isolation game. Things are looking up in Warrior land!

    • Barnes has been living in a bubble. . . .

      This inspires no confidence whatsoever. If Barnes has to be told two years into the NBA—or at all—he has to compete, what reason is there to think he’ll get it now?

      And West waited until now to tell him that? (Or did MJax keep West away? Really?) But MJax isn’t soft. Did he not tell HB something similar all season?

      • the preacher’s fall from grace has blessed barnes’ defenders with the ideal rationalization — their guy wasn’t coached adequately.

        • warriorsablaze

          They’re not wrong. He may have no more potential than a solid role player, but everybody on the planet (except the coach) could see his strengths are spot 3′s, cuts to the hoop, and running lanes in transition… yet MJax insisted on isos and post ups as his primary role. MJax had a special talent for playing to his player’s weaknesses.

          • cosmicballoon

            Haha! A special talent for playing to his player’s weaknesses. Well said WAB. David Lee certainly agrees.

    • If Barnes is only good as a limited role player—and he’s not that good a shooter—all the more reason to trade him for any value they can get. There are plenty of affordable players who can do the same or better. The team would have been better last year and the season coming if they had traded him last fall for some other prospect and picked up Belinelli. And the more you limit Barnes’ role at this still early stage, the more you stunt any potential growth.

      Trade him, trade him, trade him.

      As bad as Jackson’s offense was designed, Barnes failed the test. He should have done better regardless, but didn’t because of some combination of skills and drive we’ll have trouble sorting out yet have little hope to believe will change.

      I could even argue that Jackson’s system made some players, such as Klay and Steph, better. They improved their ability to create their own shots, post up and find a way to score, or handle heavy coverage in his stagnant offense. (The temptation is to say Jax saw basketball saw basketball as some kind of moral or spiritual challenge, one against the world. But that will toughen a player.) They will perform better, of course, in a better system. But there will always be times when a player has to scramble and improvise when the clock runs down, a play busts.

      • cosmicballoon

        I think Klay is the only player who benefitted from Jackson’s system. He was also the only player who Jackson regularly ran plays for. Steph would flourish in any system and it could easily be argued that Jackson not spreading the floor correctly has invited the blitz.

  21. My bad for saying that Nellie drafted Dunleavy. But to say that Nellie would consider Thompson an All-Star is pure speculation especially since when he has not been selected to West All-Star team and probably never will.

    EvanZ: I admire your loyalty as a fan of the Warriors. But, if you are suggesting that Thompson would be playing anywhere near as good as Leonard if he played for the Spurs is simply ridiculous. As Leonard is a much better player. We picked the wrong guy with our 11th pick in the first round.,

    • You mean Klay wouldn’t be as good playing with Tony Parker, Tim Duncan, and Manu Ginobili, because those guys really suck?

      Is that what you are telling me?

    • The obvious answer here is another question. Would Leonard be anywhere near as good as he is if the Warriors drafted him? My guess is no.

    • right after signing leonard, SA had him significantly alter his shooting technique in marathon sessions with their shot guru, Engelland. the labor impasse interrupted them but to SA’s pleasant surprise leonard had continued the retooling on his own during the lockout. and that is but one aspect of the extensive coaching leonard received, which would not be forthcoming from the preacher’s staff in oaktown — malone was in charge of player development, for example.

      study how the woeyrs, specifically the owner and west, decided on thompson, and compare how SA identified leonard in the draft (defensive stopper with great reflexes and footwork). as a fan be content that you get to enjoy leonard’s play and accept he probably wouldn’t be the same player if he played on most other teams including GS. it’s very rare for a defensive player not playing center to become a star, and SA is the perfect place for it. thibodeau of course would be a coach for it, but not the preacher. consider how many times barnes, speights, o’neal entered games before green got off the bench.

    • Given GSW already had a fabulous shooter at guard (Curry), the Dubs would have have been better off taking Leonard, in retrospect. Would never had to draft Barnes either. And AI would be at the 2.

      Still too early to say who will be better. They are both future All Stars.

      And it’s hard to say how accomplished Klay would be by now under the Spurs coaches and playing with HOF guys.

      • your premise is flawed, because GS was able to adequately develop thompson, iguodala played for two different teams in thompson’s rookie and sophomore seasons, while the lacobites would not have nurtured leonard into the player he is today.
        please review the wojnarowski article on yahoo.com from 11 June, “How Kawhi Leonard revived the Spurs’ failing dynasty” to understand the unlikelihood that leonard could be the player he is, if he were playing for most other teams including the woeyrs.

      • “Given GSW already had a fabulous shooter at guard (Curry), the Dubs would have have been better off taking Leonard”

        Because a team only needs one shooter to win, amirite.

  22. Leonard gets OR’s and steals in abundance compared to Thompson he’s gives his team extra possessions. Thompson does not. No matter who Thompson played for nor who coached him those stats not likely to change. Leonard also quicker and more focused.

    On the subject of Barnes, West telling Barnes he needs to compete seems be close to moronic advice. Barnes problems extend way beyond his inability to dribble.

  23. Peter Holt, Spurs owner, postgame:

    “It doesn’t start at the top, it starts with them.”

    And he points back to the coaches and players.

    • SA plays a unique form of the game that comes both from the coach and the anti-n.b.a. players on its roster. ex-kerr teammate sean elliot described one aspect of it — he said neither robinson nor duncan ever picked up the ‘n.b.a. superstar handbook’, never played the game that way. a recent article on diaw describes how his mother, once a player on France’s national team, taught him that the game means nothing if you don’t involve everyone on the team. duncan isn’t even part of the american athlete mainstream, he’s an islander. the internationals, the journeymen who’ve been waived or scuffled around, their roster has very close to the opposite kind of player the lacobites salivate after — their p.r. now relishing the rumours that love wants to come west. players don’t go to SA for its recording studios, endorsement deals, or the chance to ‘build their personal brand’.

    • Hey rgg, that was Buford not Holt. Finally he shows himself! Had no idea what Buford even looked like. Sure talked texan and looked the part too, jeans, big belt buckle… what an operation they have going.

  24. The Spurs offensive system provides the primary shooter with two or three options to find an open shooter if he does not have an open shot. This applies to both drives to the basket and passes into the low post.

    This contracts to the Miami offensive system where often the driver or low-post player does not have second and third options to find an open player.

    Such was a big factor in the Spurs rolling the Heat.

    • It seemed as if “the heats” were trying to emulate SA style early last night with passing and cutting and it worked well. Then they stopped/SA stopped them. Recall the dubs also having some stretches of pass & cut ball, then stopping it or being stopped at it. Wonder if it’s defensive changes that stop it or it it’s too damn much work (except for SA) to play like that continuously.

    • cosmicballoon

      Frank, this statement is exactly why Kawai Leonard is flourishing right now. If you put Klay Thompson in the same situation, he’s probably scoring 25 ppg. Thompson is a more polished offensive player than Leonard already and he has not even played in a good offense.

      Here are the playoff numbers for both. Guess who is who.

      A) 14.3 ppg, 6.7 rpg, 1.7 apg, 1.7 spg, .6bpg, .51 fg%, 0.73 ft%, 0.41 3p%, 32 mpg

      B) 16.4 ppg, 3.4 rpg, 3.6 apg, 1.0 spg, .7 bpg, 0.40 fg%, 0.79 ft%, 0.36 3p%, 36 mpg

      Now which player was coached better, and which player gets to play alongside three future hall of famers?

      Your premise that the Warriors made a mistake drafting Klay 11th is very flawed, IMO because of the many external factors that have allowed Leonard to flourish. If Leonard was on a bad team, he would not be seen even as an equal to Klay.

  25. Really, the Spurs didn’t do anything complicated at all. Build the roster for depth, variety, and flexibility, then develop the players over the years, giving them time on the court throughout the season. What impressed me about the players was how well they all executed, how confident they all looked. They were ready to step up come the playoffs.

    Patty Mills was a minor but significant factor. He was a pest on defense and his scoring and court leadership helped maintain or build the lead when he came in the last two closeout games, keeping the the Heat from getting back in.

    He was a weak 3 point shooter in college—33%. I assume he worked on his shot and got coaching. But also he ran in an offense that opened up looks for him and he had the green light to shoot and keep shooting. He missed his first few 3′s last night, then started knocking them down.

    The system can help make the player, my point. It’s also the reason I don’t trust raw statistics.

    When, if ever, did Jackson change the starting lineup to match a particular team, except when injuries forced him to?

  26. Equating Thompson’s skill level with that of Leonard’s is absurd. Leonard even surpassed Thompson in playoff’s in FG shooting percentage 51 percent to Thompson’s 40 percent. And Leonard out perpormed Thompson from beyond the arc. Who Leonard plays for is something I would expect from delusional Lacob, not you cosmicballoon.

    But if you don’t want a taller and quicker player with a higher basketball IQ, and your eyes tell you that Leonard is a better player so be it. Leonard MVP of the Finals. That’ll one needs to know

    • “But if you don’t want a taller and quicker player with a higher basketball IQ, and your eyes tell you that Leonard is a better player so be it.”

      Leonard is a quarter-inch taller than Klay.

      Is that supposed to matter?

    • cosmicballoon

      I’m not saying the Leonard is a poor player by any stretch of the imagination. I just don’t appreciate your degradation of Thompson who has improved substantially each of the past three years and is a borderline all-star at this point. Leonard has performed very well in the playoffs, but basically calling Thompson a scrub as compared to Leonard is silly. The Warriors leaned on Thompson this season much more than the Spurs did on Leonard. Thompson responded in strong fashion despite Mark Jackson’s inept offense. I just don’t see how you can claim Leonard is so much better than Thompson. They are both players on the rise, and we’ll see where their ceilings are.

      • Popovich said post game that coaches didn’t call one play for Leonard during the entire Finals. It is significant he did all the scoring within the context of the offense flow. Amazing series and a difference maker to say the least.

        Klay is a very good player, but unlike Leonard, his middle name is ‘coach calls plays for me’. Jackson called plays for KT all game. His PG is attributable to Curry, Lee, and Iggie’s unselfish passing.

        Both players are up and coming and barring injury, figure to play 7-10 more seasons. Leonard’s upside is much better in the stat sheet, and on defense. He also can run the fast break. Klay while a very good shooter, must still figure out how to run a 2-1 fast break.

  27. Great piece by Lowe analyzing the transformation of the Spurs, the changes in the game.

    “And so the Spurs got to work. They saw what Mike D’Antoni did in Phoenix, constructing some of the most potent offenses in history by surrounding a pick-and-roll with three long-range shooters and running like hell. San Antonio, once the league’s ultimate slow poke, amped up its pace, cornered the market on the corner 3, and gradually brewed the league’s most gorgeous offense by combining ingredients from lots of sources — D’Antoni’s Phoenix teams, Gregg Popovich’s own playbook, the best international teams, and more.”

    http://grantland.com/the-triangle/san-antonios-revenge-scenes-from-a-championship-run-for-the-ages/

  28. I never said that Thompson is a scrub. In fact, I said he was ok. Consider Leonard an impact player for the reasons I formerly said. , Thompson not. Leonard and Thompson both took open three pointers in the playoffs and Leonard outshot him.

    Now, Felty, rather than site K. Durant’s argument, tell us, in hindsight who would have drafted, Leonard or Thompson. I would have drafted Leonard.

    • Frank, you can draft anyone you wish for your fantasy team. leonard under the tender care of the woeyr coaches simply wouldn’t be the guy you watched this season. will refer you to the article cited earlier, it’s by wojnarowski on yahoo.com, June 11, “How Kawhi Leonard revived the Spurs’ failing dynasty”, and suggest you read more, hypothesize in moderation.

      • Moto,

        are you saying that Leonard’s work ethic as described by the Spur’s coaching staff (first in the gym, last to leave, including the lockout season) and his athleticism, and the improvement in his shot, would not have occurred if he was on the Warriors? Will Kerr improve this aspect of the team?

        Who helped Dreymond Greene? Curry? Thompson?

        • you omitted the extensive work that Engelland, the highly regarded ‘shot doc’ for SA, did with leonard. there’s no other team in the n.b.a. that has a shooting coach with his success. the woeyr organization has had inconsistent (at best) results with developing journeymen free agents into useful reserves — there was no development involved with jack and landry — which suggests a qualitative difference between their coaching staff and SA’s, as well as a failure to identify lower priced talent. green developed himself, and is probably the exception with GS that confirms the tendency. curry has the kind of gift that was going to emerge unless sabotaged.

          there’s lots of hopeful talk about what kerr might do, and since he has no record, bloggers are liberated to explore endless realms of hypothesis, encouraged of course by the lacobite p.r.

    • ” Leonard and Thompson both took open three pointers in the playoffs and Leonard outshot him.”

      LOL. Leonard doesn’t have nearly the attention paid to him on defense that Klay does.

      You can’t even tell me with a straight face that you think Kawhi is a better spot-up shooter. Look at the stats I cited below from Synergy.

      Klay shot 1.13 PPP on spot-up attempts, Kawhi a lowly 0.99.

      Not even a fair fight.

  29. Moto: In my judgement if Leonard played for the Warriors he would have performed much better than Thompson. If anyone can point to any stats that would show that Thompson shot better then Leonard on open shots, cite them.

    I do believe that Thompson would have had a much higher FG percentage than the 46 percentage on 2′s he shot if thecWarriors had run more.

    Yes, Leonard may be only 1/2 inch taller than Thompson, but I suspect that Lenard has a much longer wing span, as one article I read suggested that Leonard has a much longer wing span than even A. Bynum.

    • “Yes, Leonard may be only 1/2 inch taller than Thompson”

      Wrong again. Only 1/4 inch taller according to the draft combine.

    • ” If anyone can point to any stats that would show that Thompson shot better then Leonard on open shots, cite them.”

      As a spot-up shooter Klay shot 1.13 PPP on 366 attempts.

      Kawhi shot 0.99 PPP on 303 attempts.

      Not even close.

  30. 14 teams passed on Kawhi Leonard, who I’m sure would be happy to have him now, although I suspect he may not have passed Lacob’s “character” test. JL wouldn’t have known what to make of his reticence.

    His draft report is quite ambiguous, especially on offense:

    “Leonard is not only an average ball-handler, but he also struggles to make shots consistently from beyond the arc. His 0.743 points per shots on jumpers ranks 16th of 17 in the class, where he shot an abysmal 31% from the field. His struggles extend both to his catch and shoot jumpers (32%) and pull-ups (28%).”

    From DraftExpress.com http://www.draftexpress.com#ixzz34qzDDjRD
    http://www.draftexpress.com

    In fact in many respects it’s worse than Barnes’. But I seriously doubt the Spurs could have made Barnes a much better player. The intangibles matter, as does coaching.

    • in back to back drafts the lacobites chose wings whose scoring/shooting potential they fancied, when other players were available for defense including bigs (leonard, several alternatives to barnes the following year). picking barnes was more dubious than thompson because his position and skill set duplicated the latter’s to a degree, and skilled two way wings become available on the market (iguodala or deng just in the upper tier).
      with SA’s value conscious m.o. they would neither pay a premium tariff for a free agent wing nor use a lottery pick for one, unless they were convinced he’d be an impact player in an essential area. in leonard’s case, they saw him as a premium stopper who could match up with the very best opposing scorers, and trusted the rest to their shot doctor and other mentors including the SA vets.

  31. Substance / Hype
    Spurs / Warriors
    Fundamental / Splash
    K Leonard / H Barnes
    Popovich / Jackson
    Some short Frenchman / Transcendental move
    Whoever manages the Spurs / Lacob

    D Lee / K Love
    Lee just does not fit on the Warriors side of the equation.

    Avg Spurs ticket: $59 / Avg Warriors ticket: $95
    (http://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/which-nba-teams-most-affordable/)

    If Love is available, Lacob will trade Lee for Love, and Warriors ticket prices will go up a bit more. That is the goal, right?

    Sigh.

    • Would it have mattered? It’s not like Jackson would have used him in any way that was useful.

      • cosmicballoon

        +1 EZ. We all opined that the Warriors had one of the best rosters in the NBA last season. Jackson’s poor rotations, mass substitutions and lack off offense were a major part of last season’s issues. I agree that Diaw would not have seen the light of day for Jackson. Felty, remember how Jackson handled Mokur?

      • Even if misused, Diaw at least would have brought experience and versatility to the floor, both in short supply on the bench.

  32. Looked up a few stats on NBA.com, player tracking data that ranks players in NBA by certain categories. Looking at this season it appears Leonard ranked 6 in NBA in Catch and Shoot, Thompson 27th. Pull up- Leonard 13th in NBA, Thompson 52. Passing- Leonard 26th in NBA, Thompson 44. Defense- Leonard 17th in NBA, Thompson, 49th. Enough said.

    • Klay shot 59.9% eFG on catch and shoot jumpers during the regular season.

      Leonard shot 58.2% eFG.

      Frank, you need to do some fact checking buddy! (My guess is you were looking at playoff stats.)

      Nuff said.

  33. It appears the rankings were the playoffs which makes the wide gap between Leonard and Thompson, and Leonard’s performance against the best players and teams so much more impressive. Drafting Thompson over Leonard was a huge mistake. But somewhat understandable as management only looked at three point shooting. If they had looked at whole picture they would have gone with Leonard.

    They made the same mistake in drafting Barnes.

  34. Talk of Kyle Lowry going to the Heat. I think there was a window where we might have been able to trade Barnes for Lowry. Dammit.

  35. Over the course of the season, Leonard playing less minutes per game than K. Thompson, had almost twice as many offensive rebounds, more than twice the number of defensive rebounds, almost twice as many steals, had more blocks trips to the foul line, and committed less turnovers than Thompson. He shot an effective FG percentage of 58 percent compared to Thompson’s 53 percent. Thompson made a slightly higher percentage of FT ‘s and had more assists.

    • Post him up in the triangle—

      And then what?

    • warriorsablaze

      The article clearly states the role as “facilitator”… which is exactly what Bogut’s strengths on offense are outside of rebounding or put-backs.

  36. Kerr will quickly learn that Bogut has no offensive game other than dunks, put-backs, and drives or floaters to the hope. His hook shot is abysmal.

    Kerr will quickly see that playing Bogut low in the triangle is a disaster.As playing him low will only cut off one half the court for drives by other players.

    • warriorsablaze

      Kerr has made no indications that Bogut is to be used as a post up iso player… the article Felty posted specifically calls the role as facilitator with Luc Longley being the example. Maybe my memory is foggy, but I don’t recall Longley being relied upon as a post up iso player that needed to score unless the opportunity presented itself.

      The amount of spin and willful misinterpretation that goes on on this blog is dizzying sometimes.

      • The spin and willful misrepresentation are all on your part in this case. I stated nothing but the truth, with no qualifications or value judgements whatsoever, implied or otherwise.

        I do accept your premise that one should always read with an open mind, though.

        • warriorsablaze

          I was responding to Frank, who clearly just read your sentence that Bogut would be “posted up” in the triangle… where the article simply talks about him being involved as a facilitator.

          Perhaps you posted with no implied editorial, but I’ve never seen you bother to do such a thing.

          • My bad. I’m still working from an IPad, and sometimes lose track of which replies are on which post.

  37. cosmicballoon

    Per 36 minute stats, from Basketball Reference in the 2013-14 season:
    Klay: 0.444% shooting, 0.795% FT, 0.417% 3PT, 18.7 ppg, 81 games played, 3.1 reb, 2.3 assists, .9 stls, .5 blcks, 1.7 TOs

    Kawhi: .522% shooting, .802% FT, .379% 3PT, 15.8 ppg, 65 games played, 7.7 reb, 2.5 assists, 2.1 stls, 0.9 blcks, 1.5 TOs.

    OK, Frank. I give in. Based on these measureables, Leonard was better than Thompson this season. BUT, the one thing that stands out is games played! Leonard played 16 fewer games this season, and over his three season career, has played in 41 fewer regular season games than Klay. That’s an injury red flag, and could be the reason he only played 29.1 minutes per game this season. Klay is an ironman, and Leonard is certainly not.

    • “Based on these measureables, Leonard was better than Thompson this season”

      Wrong conclusion. Different positions, different roles, different teammates, different defenders. You cannot compare these players by their stats.

      Next assignment for Frank: A statistical comparison of Reggie Miller to Shawn Marion.

      • cosmicballoon

        Of course, Felty. Thompson was played at 2-guard and Leonard at 3 and spread 4. However, Leonard has proven that he disrupts a game in a similar way to Draymond Green (and he fills up the stat sheet in a similar way. too). Thompson has not proven that he can consistently rebound, nor create turnovers the way Green, Leonard, or even Curry does. While the comparison is off, I think it’s certainly a valid argument that Leonard is a more valuable player than Thompson at this point, even if they are playing different positions. I absolutely love Thompson, and I wouldn’t trade him for Leonard because the Warriors have Iggy, but its a fun discussion.

        All that said, the injury concerns I alluded to by mentioning games missed is a real thing, and something that can’t be downplayed. If he’s going to miss 15 to 20 games a year at 24 years old, how many will he miss when he’s 29 and 30?

        • You’re right about the injury concerns. Leonard has persistent tendonitis in his knees — not good.

        • I love the equating of the number of things with the value of things. It’s akin to the mistake people make when they compare two teams…you’ve probably seen this countless times before:

          “Our PG > Their PG
          Their SG > Our SG
          Our SF Their PF
          Our C > Their C
          .
          Therefore, we are better at 4 out of 5 positions, so of course, we are the better team.”

          Oh, wait. But they don’t tell you “Their SF” is LeBron James. LOL.

          Curry’s ability to shoot is better than 10 “of these other things” you can name from most other players. It’s so much better, perhaps, best in league history, that you wouldn’t trade him for most other players that perhaps do everything better except shoot nearly as well. Right?

          Klay’s ability to space the floor, even if that’s all he could do (which it’s clearly not, if you include defense), is worth more than a bunch of other things. If Klay was needed to rebound more, I’m sure he could. If he was asked to pass more, and put in a situation where the team emphasized that, I’m pretty sure he could do that. I’ve seen him make great passes.

          I was convinced on draft day that the Warriors blew it by taking Klay ahead of Kawhi. I even blogged about it. But as time went on, it became more and more clear that Klay was worth of that pick and of all the teams that passed on Kawhi, we should have the least amount of regret.

          In short, there are much bigger fish to fry for this team. Of all the things the Lacob regime has “accomplished”, picking Klay is among the top.

  38. Andrew Bogut is not Luc Longley on the offensive end, and it’s not close:

    1) Longley was a triple threat in the post. HE COULD SHOOT.

    2) Longley was aggressive attacking the basket. BECAUSE HE WASNT AFRAID OF GETTING FOULED. 76% career from the line.

    3) Longley liked the low post. Bogut hates it. Ask Scott Skiles. Bogut protects his bad elbow and bad ankle from contact.

    4) Longley had multiple go to moves in the post. Bogut has one, the off-hand jump hook.

    5) Low post offense is the lowest efficiency offense in the NBA, and Bogut is among the least efficient low post big men in the league. Below 40% in recent years, I believe.

    6) As the Warriors discovered over the last two years, Bogut is a poor facilitator out of the low post. If you’re not a threat to score, and can’t draw the attention of the defense, no one is left open.

    7) The Bulls were a walk it up, half court team, which gave Longley time to set up in the post. Is that the Warriors identity?

    8) Longley made it to the playoffs.

    Like Smart and Jackson before him, Steve Kerr is starting from scratch, and starting by attempting to square the circle.

    • can only find out later if bogut in the low post sees anything more than very token use. the coach’s junket to Ozland was a player relations gesture, and the i pad show something whipped up for the occasion. kerr is showing he can be adept at saying the right sounding things to the right people. maybe that’s how his owner defines progress from his coaches.

    • warriorsablaze

      But again… it seems like you’re extrapolating and making a ton of assumptions from a 250 word article. It only said Longely often played a facilitator role and Bogut could as well… didn’t say he has to play exactly the same role or way Longely played. Kerr — if we’re using his words for our sleuthing — has already said he would use elements of the triangle but it WOULD NOT look like the 90′s Bulls… meaning (hopefully) it will be adjusted to fit the strengths and weaknesses of the roster.

      I’m quite sure Kerr is aware of Bogut’s strengths and weaknesses…though I thought they would be obvious to MJax, too, so who knows.

      Question is, besides not playing him, how do you feel Bogut should be used on offense?

      • As with Biedrins and Ezeli, really the only way to use him efficiently is to get him the ball on the move. He is so frequently ignored by his own man that we frequently see him open for alley oops, or slashing when his man moves to cover a Lee drive off PNR.

        Bogut is virtually useless in both posts, tho the high post is better for him because it affords more passing angles. But he fails at the principal object of the high post, which is to draw the big man out of the lane.

        He might be tremendously effective in pick and roll, if he were actually willing to roll, catch, and attack the basket. He’s not, though, as we’ve seen, because he’s deathly afraid of going to the line. He usually refuses to roll. Sometimes rolls without even looking at Curry. And when he does actually roll and catch he will do anything to avoid contact near the rim. Play hot potato, or launch that running floater he invented last year for just this purpose.

  39. So GSW is trying to shake loose guru Chip Engelland as a shooting instructor.

    Why on earth would he want to leave the Spurs and come here?

    But here’s the real question: if there’s a talent out there, unknown, could GSW find him, as the Spurs did some nine years ago?

    Engelland, after graduating from Duke, first played for the San Miguel Beermen and took them to a title. It’s the same team where Reggie Williams is playing now. The team is shorthanded because of injuries. In one game, Williams scored 37 points, with 8 boards, 5 assists, and 5 steals.

    http://www.gmanetwork.com/news/story/365282/sports/basketball/pba-ginebra-downs-san-miguel-beer-takes-share-of-top-spot-in-standings

    • popovich is a lifelong serious student of the game and has probably built up a huge network of scouts and other contacts in the international hoops world, while he has made SA a destination for international hoops talents.
      lacob and myers are tyros ; the lifetimers are the lesser riley and west of course, who are probably marginalized in the executive council. riley probably still has many contacts, but with west it’s difficult to tell because he seems semi-reclusive, has a reputation for being prickly in interpersonal relations (the least happy man in basketball, according to simmons), and follows lots of hoops via video monitors.

  40. OK, I’m bored and nothing is going on. Maybe we’ll hear from Mary.

    Here’s some Texas music for the Spurs and Mick Jagger’s tribute to Bob Wills. I swear, they almost put this off:

    • +1 How did u know my favorite band of all time?

    • Okay, I’ll bite: never thought rgg would listen to the Stones much less post them. How about some Seldom Scene doing Clapton?

      I’m always impressed by the basketball insights on this blog. There must be an NBA gene for men, and added to the intelligence and articulate analysis found here, it’s pretty f/amazing. All us lurkers thank you all!

      • I’m hurt. I recently picked up Get Yer Ya-Ya’s Out!, a recording of the Stones live concert at Madison Square Garden, my favorite.

  41. Rumors rampant that Warriors leading the pack in the Kevin Love sweepstakes. If true, it must mean Flip Saunders is willing to take David Lee. And if that’s true, Saunders must be more interested in competing now than in acquiring draft picks.

    I’m still skeptical. Hard enough to believe Saunders will take Lee, but even harder to believe he won’t demand Klay Thompson, who’s apparently off the table at the moment.

    • I’d love to see Draymond + Love units. I can’t imagine they’d do that trade without taking Klay. That’s just too good to be true.

    • warriorsablaze

      I can’t imagine them accepting a deal without Klay involved unless Love is strong-arming them about where he’s willing to go and the Wolves are panicking.

      I’m not as high on Klay as you are, Felt, but I’m still wary of sending him off… even to get Love. Largely would depend on who then fills his role…do we move Iggy to the 2 and slide Dray in as the starting 3? Does Kevin Martin come in the deal and take the 2 (yuck…though solid as scoring off the bench)? Do we bring in some solid 3′n’D role player?

    • Some rumors suggest adding Green to the deal.

      Love doesn’t add that much, if anything, when all the pluses and misuses are calculated. The big concern is where the trade leaves the team with the rest of the roster, which would probably be left skin bare, as before.

      • Mychal Thompson says his son and Lee will be traded for K Martin, and K Love. Warriors include a #1 draft pick (who needs those?)

        Cannot do trade until after draft next week.

        https://twitter.com/SerenaWinters/status/479681550598938624

        • cosmicballoon

          I dislike the idea that Kevin Martin can replace Thompson either on the the defensive or offensive ends of the floor. Nice work FO: trade your best perimeter defender for two guys who play no defense. And add in a first round pick.

          I guess this is another case of getting rid of the sins of the past. Only this time its Mark Jackson’s defensive mentality.

        • there is no such statement from thompson’s dad on the twit that you linked — it relates that he’s heard the same rumour being mongered for a while.

          • Serena Winters @SerenaWinters
            RE: Kevins to the Warriors, Mychal Thompson, Klay Thompson’s father, says “My source knows what’s going on up there.” (on @ESPNLA710)

            Marc Stein also tweeted FWIW…

  42. Prepare for blatting…

  43. David Pick, a well-respected senior correspondent at Eurobasket.com, Sportando.com and ONE.co.il, the Israeli equivalent of ESPN, sent out three tweets on Wednesday after former Maccabi Tel Aviv coach David Blatt’s interview with the Cavaliers.

    First, he tweeted: “It’s finished. Went good, I’m told.”

    Then he added, “Cavaliers have interviewed David Blatt for head coach position. Source, “was a good talk.”‘

    Finally, he tweeted, “People close to David Blatt advised he join Golden State as assistant over diving into head coach role in Cleveland.”

    http://www.cleveland.com/cavs/index.ssf/2014/06/report_cleveland_cavaliers_had.html

  44. “The Golden State Warriors have greatly increased their chances of acquiring All-Star forward Kevin Love by making sharpshooting swingman Klay Thompson available to Love’s Minnesota Timberwolves in trade talks, according to sources close to the situation.”

    http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/11108483/golden-state-warriors-add-klay-thompson-possible-kevin-love-trade

    I wish they’d throw in Curry so I can stop watching.

    • two of curry’s favorites in the termite mound were/are the preacher and thompson. if they intend to re-sign love in ’16, he’d become the highest paid guy on the team just as curry is closing out his present deal. do they plan on keeping both of ‘em content, or get them to sign for below market value — either way, their expectations from curry might be fantastical.

  45. My thought is that all will be well with Steph if we are better. This trade would make us better. Discernibly. If Kerr lets them run and spread the floor as he says he will, and especially if we get Blatt, and what I have read about him is accurate, this team will be a contender with Love. The salary cap will increase and Curry will get max without question on a winning team in a city he likes with ball movement and a co-captain that makes him even better. This is an absolute win. No question. Klay is good with major upside, but he isn’t ever going to be on the Steph level, thus his ceiling, albeit great, is nowhere higher than where Love is TODAY. Additionally, Klay wants max money and some desperate team like Sac will offer it, which is too much. This trade seems likely, there won’t be a better offer out there and it will make us a legit contender. Can’t imagine why anyone wouldn’t do this. On the flip side, vets that want a championship and aren’t as concerned with money will flock to GSW as they did to Miami. Curious to hear Felt and Evanz’s take on this, but I don’t see how this isn’t a huge win. Two superstars in their prime with three elite defenders is a major winning recipe, even if you give up a great 2 way player to get there.

  46. shit-

    @WojYahooNBA
    David Blatt has emerged as strong frontrunner to become coach of Cleveland Cavaliers, league sources tell Yahoo Sports.

    Gentry?

  47. side note- if MT’s new post is accurate and the Dubs counter with including Klay only if Min includes the #13, is there anyone on this blog that doesn’t do this trade if Min does?

    additionally, anyone remember when there was talk of trading Anthony Randolph for love years ago and GSW fans lost their mind at the prospect? The difference five years makes…

  48. You do this trade without question, especially if they throw in the pick and we don’t have to, then you high five every other fan you know. Correct Evanz?

    • Scenarios:

      1) They throw in the 13 pick = no-brainer
      2) No pick thrown in, but we keep our 2015 pick = slightly more brain involved, but not much
      3) We give up our 2015 pick = enough brain involved to impair higher level motor activity, but enough brain left to do the deal.

  49. haha…my exact assessment…I have a feeling we can get their pick…if so i do the trade yesterday…

  50. Anyone considering this angle? A Curry/Love core could be extremely compelling for Lebron.

    • – Or Carmelo Anthony?

    • Why would this be a better team than the Miami team that just got routed by the Spurs? Factor in what the rest of the roster will be.

      • FeltbotsFakeGirlfriend

        If you don’t think Curry and Love are massive upgrades over Wade and Bosh than perhaps you should stop watching basketball.

  51. The proposed Love trade is a horrible deal, for reasons that are multiple and interrelated, reasons that have been staring us in the face for years. Part of the problem is that Love’s value is overrated, another is that it’s based on an false and exaggerated notion of who Curry is and what he can do. And still another is what they can do together.

    I am depressed.

    • “another is that it’s based on an false and exaggerated notion of who Curry is and what he can do. ”

      Huh?

      • My head is in a knot on this one. If it happens, I’ll have time to unravel it. But all the answers have appeared in FB’s posts for years.

        Curry cannot penetrate with speed and power. As good as he is in creating his own shot, he can get shut down on the perimeter, as we’ve seen so many times. He’s not Rondo (in his healthy prime), or Ellis for that matter. And one of the things we discovered this season is that the Warriors did not have enough offense with the starters and especially with the subs.

        What Curry can best do is work in an open court, push the pace, and find offensive options—if he has them. And of course shoot anywhere and drive if he finds openings.

        What gets lost in all the stat talk is how good Curry and Thompson make each other, most when they have an open court and they push the pace. Turn them loose, and they are the NBA’s most lethal offensive weapon. But even then they can get shut down, as we saw against the Spurs.

        Of course Jackson did not play them well, or Lee, and especially not Lee. But even with a more spread floor, more ball movement, and faster tempo, the team often suffered from a lack of offensive weapons.

        Love, Iguodala, Curry, Bogut—and who, Martin? Martin is a step down from Klay in many ways, and this roster does not give many options on offense at all. Then there’s the bench and how to fill the 48 minutes.

        I can see Minnesota with Thompson and Lee becoming trouble, btw, if a few other things happen.

        • warriorsablaze

          However potent a combo Curry / Klay is, Curry/Love is even stronger. That pick and roll… As well as Love’s elite transition outlet passing would cause complete havoc when Curry is the recipient.

          You can ignore stats if you like, but as an academic you must have some idea how much bias shapes perception. Evanz probably has the stats at the ready and I’m in my phone… I believe they show Curry helping Klay with very little, if any, reciprocation.

          Martin isn’t a great replacement for Klay, but his offense at least is comperable , and I think this trade can’t really be judged until we see what other moves are made before the season. I don’t see Martin becoming the starting 2. If the rumored 13th pick is involved, it’s a no brainer.

        • “Love, Iguodala, Curry, Bogut—and who, Martin?”

          Uh, Draymond? Not a scorer, but as good a facilitator this team has outside of Curry.

      • Most frustrating is that the team never learned what it could do with Klay, Curry, and Lee. If the trade happens, the team will be starting over again, and once more with a rookie coach. Development, identity were not explored and what there was will be lost. This is not progress.

        • warriorsablaze

          It’s progress if we win more games… So nothing to do but wait and see.

          The idea of homegrown talent is romantic, but the Spurs had hall of fame level players, and the Thunder likely have two as well. Klay and Lee are good, not great, players. If you can replace your 3rd and 4th option for a 1st.5 option…. You do it.

        • Love is 5 years younger than Lee and entering his prime. There’s no question Lee is entering the twilight of his career and wouldn’t even be likely to be re-signed as anything other than a role player when his contract his up.

          Championships are not usually built around 2 guards, are they?

          • cosmicballoon

            +1 EZ. Lee can’t be considered a 20-10 guy anymore like he used to be. He could fill a roll on a championship team, but probably not at the salary figure he’s currently sitting at. Feltbot started to chronicle some of his chronic health issues this season. Lee is as good a Warrior as we’ve seen in the last decade, so I will be sad to see him go. But the team is looking to build, then they do have to move him (and his salary) at some point.

  52. So we’re getting Gentry?

    http://valleyofthesuns.com/2014/06/19/steve-kerr-warriors-reportedly-hire-alvin-gentry/

    I’m guessing they put up a lot of bucks.

  53. If we get Love, Martin, and a 1st. round selection for Lee and Thompson, it’s a good trade. Nothing better than a younger and three point power forward. if the deal goes thru we won’t overpay Thompson
    to resign and in Martin get a guy who at least gets to the foul line. Neither Thompson nor Martin are add to our future success but that no. 13 pick plus later trading Barnes may really help. Here Barea thrown in. Don’t like that part.

    • the combined salaries for love, martin, barea for the coming season will be $27 m., barea’s 4.5 m. will expire in June 2015 but the other two will increase.

  54. Excited about Gentry signing, but just now moving back into house. Post coming eventually.

  55. Glad to hear you will post again Felt, hopefully soon.

    How will that work with Gentry, Kerr, and Myers?

    I guess its OK trading Thompson for Love, if the Wolves give up their no. 1 pick.

    Do you mean including Barnes to get the pick?

    • I mean it shouldn’t matter what the Warriors get for Barnes. I believe he’s a losing player and a sunk cost.

      If the Wolves want either Barnes or Green thrown in, then it should be Barnes.

      • cosmicballoon

        Green is not a throw in player anymore…that was last season. He proved this year that he is a winning player who can add to any team. He’s going to be earning $8-$10M per year on his next contract.

        Barnes on the other hand…I was watching ESPN this morning (First Take) and Freddy Coleman said that Barnes is a better defender than Thompson (who he called underrated) and said that Barnes is a comparable scorer because he can get to the bucket. He said that Barnes could step in at the 2 in place of the traded Thompson.

        It almost made me fling my Honey Nut Cheerios across the room.

  56. @56

    Klay makes Curry better simply by stepping on the court.

    But the first thing you have to do is wipe from memory half the offensive sets Jackson ran, which played them to disadvantage and reduced their individual and combined offensive efficiency, and instead remember what they can do when turned loose.

    Klay, because of his versatility at all ranges, can command a large percentage of the court and defensive attention, more than a stretch 4 (which is still a good idea), and because of his good speed, he can do this quickly, again more quickly than a 4. He can drive, he can hit the midrange, and can be deadly beyond the arc. This opens up more court for Curry. But he can also set that split second screen to open up Curry. Curry and Klay can run crossing and flare patterns that slice a defense up. He will tax the better players on the opposing teams on defense and wear them down. And he can have brilliant games to offset Curry when he has an off game.

    Curry and Thompson are a tremendous pair, unique in the NBA.

    Add to this the playmaking abilities of Iguodala and Lee (WHEN PLAYED CORRECTLY!) and the offense opens up for everybody. What gets forgotten is how much Lee can complement the total offense when he plays out or is run on the pick and roll—which we didn’t see enough of last season.

    Klay, now with Iguodala, has also helped shore up the defense and protect Curry.

    And then there are the intangibles. He learned quickly and keeps learning. He has shown steel determination from day one and has not let up. He is not self-absorbed, but committed to getting better and making the team better. These are rare qualities, not easily replaced. And he hasn’t reached his ceiling.

    None of these things are measured well by stats, or at all.

    I don’t care how much individual players score. I care how much the whole team scores. And a starting lineup with Love but without Klay will be easier to defend and will have trouble scoring. There just won’t be enough offense on the floor.

    But more than this. I’m assuming a Love deal will also leave the team thin on the bench, which means the starters will have to play heavy minutes. It was the other thing that hampered both Klay and Curry this past season, the heavy minutes they had to play, these compounded by all the running they had to do on both ends of the court.

    We’ve seen it time and time again. OKC was diminished by the departure of Harding—and I’m not sold on Harding at all. He’s not a complete package. Miami couldn’t get scoring elsewhere. Etc.

    Trading Klay is a mistake.

    • warriorsablaze

      Except nothing you’ve said here is based on anything but your own conjecture.

      A stretch 4 is a mismatch in our favor against the majority of teams and opens the offense up far more than Klay… and spreads the floor for Curry especially. I think Klay is very good, but I don’t really see him and Curry as all that complementary… they work, but it’s not irreplaceable. Though the defense takes an obvious hit, Kevin Martin’s offensive production is nearly identical to Klay’s.

      Whether or not it’s a mistake completely depends on the overall deal.

    • “Klay makes Curry better simply by stepping on the court.”

      Curry shot 60.5% TS on 27.5% USG with Klay on the court.

      Curry shot 61.5% TS on 29.8% USG with Klay on the bench.

      Curry is good.

      • Given the minutes Klay and Curry play, 36 ea., the amount of time they aren’t together will be a small percentage. And the context will be completely different when they’re apart—trying to shore up the subs and spell each other—which provides situations difficult to read. Most, they are together at essential times: starting, closing out the 2nd. half, starting the third and closing out the game.

        What the stats won’t show is the way they played under Jackson, as I said above, which limited their individual and combined efficiency—all the post-up and iso play (was it over half the offense?)—vs how well they play when turned loose.

  57. Warriors trying to unload Barnes for a lower pick in this years draft:

    http://www.hoopsrumors.com/2014/06/warriors-shopping-harrison.html

  58. So what’s the deal with Love? He’s slated for $15.7 next season and has a player option at $16.7 the following season.

    Does this mean that if he isn’t happy with the Warriors next year he might decide to bolt? That if he does stay the second season, he will go on the market again and probably command top dollar, assuming good performance and competing teams still have star dust in their eyes?

    Isn’t this an expensive gamble?

    Just how good is Love?

    Part of the problem is that we don’t have much to go on beyond the hype. One reason that Barnes has respect, at least with the national media, is that they largely only see highlights and playoff games. And the Barnes hype still endures, for reasons that baffle. See CB’s comment, @60.

    That Love is a good offensive player, there’s no denying. But I’m trying to see through the hype. One thing that concerns me, as FB noted, is that the Love teams haven’t done well at all, which makes me wonder. A dominant player should have more impact. Is it because of the weakness of their roster? If so, that means teams can give Love more room to score, essentially conceding his points, as they clamp down on the other players, thus padding his stats. It’s not a luxury Love would have with the Warriors as they push to make the playoffs.

    But there are good pieces on the Wolves, which makes me wonder how well he works with the whole team. He doesn’t look like the complete package. I can’t make a case here, but I suspect he’s weak on the intangibles Lee has shown so much.

    I don’t know about you guys, but I don’t have League Pass, so don’t have a chance to see Love play, except when he plays the Warriors. And of course we haven’t seen him in the playoffs.

    So let’s look at those games, where we were 2-1 against the Wolves. Love did get his average, in fact in one scored 40 in one, where he hit his 3s, 5-9, better than his season average there, 38%.

    Note that Love plays alongside Pekovic, a huge big who is fairly mobile, who is also a good scorer—17 points per game at 54%. Pek will tax front court defenses and open up space for Love and allow him room to move around. This is NOT a luxury Love will have Bogut.

    Defense? Note that Lee averaged 23 points per game at high percentage—71%! And he averaged 10 boards. Where was Love?

    Also note Bogut didn’t play one of those games and was a virtual no show in the other two—marginal boards for a big, and few points. Which meant Lee was carrying a heavier load up front. (Or that the Warriors were able to go small and run up the scoring with their very efficient backcourt. They were able to concede Love and run the score. I haven’t studied the games closely.)

    In short, are the stats misleading?

    So put Love on the Warriors and put them up against the better competition. What will happen? I’m skeptical and can’t help wondering if he’s overhyped. Many players put up good numbers with good teams whom we don’t see much in the playoffs.

    Somebody counter here.

    • cosmicballoon

      Rgg- Most of us probably haven’t watched much Wolves ball. However, the one thing that I remember is that they had trouble winning close games. By January 9, the Wolves were 0-10 in games decided by 4 or fewer points. As I recall, Love would often get the ball 25 feet from the hoop and try launching a three in many late game situations. The thing that tells me is that his point guard couldn’t shoot (Rubio), and perhaps, much like David Lee, he’s not built to be a closer. Both those problems would be solved by playing with Steph.

      • The other way to look at that, of course, is that Love would put more pressure on Curry on what would be an offensively challenged closing unit.

    • Correction:

      “This is NOT a luxury Love will have with Bogut.”

    • for a Min’s blogger take on the proposals, and an amusing view on barnes, go to awolfamongwolves.com, Z.Harper’s 19 June article, “….just don’t get David Lee”

  59. “Gentry and the Warriors have agreed to a three-year contract that nearly doubles his Clippers salary, a source told Yahoo! Sports.”

    Which, after seeing FB’s tweet, makes me wonder how much Rivers valued Gentry.

    Meanwhile, Blatt reported to get 4 years, $20m.

    It’s a good time to be a head coach, financially anyway.

  60. Really getting excited about Warriors trading with the Wolves. If the Warriors pick up both Love and Martin, the Warriors should take 6 additional foul shots each game.

    I don’t know whether there are good picks available after the 12th pick but just looking at some stats if we could pick up the Wolves 13th pick and someone as good as TJ Warren, the Warriors should be in good shape.

    And if we can unload Barnes and be able to draft Napier in the first round the Warriors will have taken a huge step forward.

    I would expect more good things to occur before training camp opens.

    • taking love without martin and re-signing him at the compensation he wants could cost the team curry, especially if thompson has been traded to acquire love. love would begin his next contract in the final season of curry’s present discounted deal.

      the inclusion of martin would cripple the woeyr budget. saunders might be resigned to a net loss in talent after trading love (if he gets thompson and lee the talent might be close, possibly favoring Min), so he will try to help the team on the payroll front.

  61. Always felt that until the Warriors obtain better players than Thompson ( sorry Felty) and Barnes theWarriors would never play in NBA finals.

    Trading Barnes for a first round pick would be great. If we wind up with two picks in the first round and draft correctly my dreams may well be fulfilled.

  62. To rgg at 63

    You say what do we know about K Love except hype. Then, you cite some anecdotal observations from 3 games. I think you can start with objective measurements for the whole season. There are a number of advanced stats that shed some light. I happen to have Wins Produced handy but others I’ve looked at are similar in result. Top 8 WP for 2013-14, in order:
    Kevin Durant
    Lebron James
    Deandre Jordan
    Andre Drummond
    Kevin Love
    Stephen Curry
    Chris Paul
    Joakim Noah

    If enough different measurements put someone near the top of the stats for their game, they are probably in that neighborhood even if you want to split hairs on the order or “how high”. That isn’t hype, just analysis.

    As for Peckovic, him clogging up the low post isn’t going to do Love any favors. Bogut’s facilitating from the high post and taking fewer shots means more opportunity for Love, not less. Not to mention that moving Love to the 5 will create opportunities that don’t exist today with Lee. Don’t forget also that a defense sending another wing to run Thompson off the three point line is light years different than another team having to send their rim protector to run Love off the three point line. Opportunities will arise from the defense having to get out of position.

    Lee is a good scorer, Love is better. Lee is a good rebounder, Love is better. Lee is a good passer, Love is better. Love is younger and bigger. I don’t like the idea of losing Thompson but I can see replacing that production with what Love brings, a bigger role for Draymond and better subs.

    • love resembles troy murphy on steroids more than lee, because of his shooting. stronger, faster, stronger on the boards and getting his own shot, better passer and facilitator. steroids wouldn’t help murphy much on defense though, and love has to increase focus and effort there if he becomes a woeyr. he’s unlikely to equal murphy as a shooter, though, to give credit where it’s due. murphy has a higher lifetime 3 pt. pct., and his effective f.g. pct. and true shooting pct. in a GS jersey are better than love’s career numbers. murphy’s best shooting seasons in Ind aren’t likely to be ever matched by love — they’re closer to curry or durant territory.

    • Thanks, YouTired, and I will always defer to better minds. I’m just trying to cut through the hype, voice some hunches, and push the argument.

      The point is justify a gamble and a salary—max?—he’ll pull down if he comes to the Warriors and stays for a third and successive years, when he’ll negotiate his next contract, one that will leave little money for other options to fill out the squad. The team will still lack depth, and won’t have picks or money to bring players along.

      And I’ll especially have to defer to better stat minds on Wins Produced, though question the value of a stat that has Jordan and Drummond at the top, just below the league’s two superstars, and at least question its relevance to a Lee/Love trade.

      My suspicion, only that and scarcely supported, is that teams can concede Love points because the rest of the team, for whatever reason, is weak. His Wins Produced might be high, but the number of actual wins for the Wolves is low—and the expectation, given their players, was that they should have been winning many more. Many players score well on weak teams, but don’t produce when they move up.

      My other impression, and I wouldn’t put much stock in this at all—I don’t—is that Love plays soft on both ends of the court, especially on defense.

      Pekovic is not my idea of an ideal center, but he can score with some range, and this is going to draw a defending center and open up room for Love.

      What rim defender would go out for Love? Wouldn’t that be a 4 and not a center? Bogut, however, does not draw defenders when he plays out, and we’ve seen this time and time again. His defending center can roam—and probably push Love out to the 3 point line, where we can only hope he knocks down his shots.

      And I still don’t see a lot of offense with the starters if Love comes and Klay leaves, and not much at all with the subs. He’ll see more pressure than he saw with the Wolves, especially against the better teams and the teams they’ll meet in the playoffs, where Love hasn’t been tested at all.

      If Love is the future, he has to be a max player, and I’m not convinced this is true, that he’ll justify the money he will likely draw, that it couldn’t be better spent. Most, I hate to see the team lose the potential it has with Klay.

      Lee, of course, is not cheap and there may be questions about his health. My hope is that he stays, can hold out, and that his replacement be brought along at a more affordable price. (Any chance he might negotiate for a cheaper contract after his current one runs out?)

      Feltbot?

      I’d also like to hear Popovich’s opinion.

      You out there, Pop?

      • Finishing my thoughts—

        But I obviously look at Love’s raw stats—ppg and boards—and take them seriously.

        I’m not convinced that Love minus Klay team will be that much better than what we just saw (and what we could have seen were they better coached), that he will take them to the next level, or that he will justify what they’re planning to spend, $15.7 next season, $16.7 the following—and then how much if they resign him?

      • if love comes to oaktown and gets a max deal after his player option year, the team will be choosing him over curry, whose contract expires the season after love’s option year. only one max player per roster is permitted under the c.b.a.

        part of leadership is focus and effort on both ends of the floor. curry may be a weak defender, but he understands this and has improved his defense. love has not risen to the challenge, which is why he is not regarded as a max player in Min by many there.

      • rgg,

        Advanced stats grnerally reward anything that gains possessions (like rebounds) and avoids losing possessions like missed shots and turnovers. Big rebound inhalers and rim protectors that rarely miss their short range shots do as well as the great scorers in these stats. I don’t know that they capture defense as well as one would like but nothing is perfect. And if you recall how Deandre Jordan snuffed out the warriors almost singlehandedly in a couple of games in the playoffs, you wouldnt be too surprised at his high ranking. He was no joke this year.

        If Kerr has any sense we will get a good dose of Love at the 5 in a small lineup. It should be even more devastating offensively than Lee at the 5. That’s one way to pull the rim protection. Even as a 4, you pull a big from the rim, so anyone else who penetrates draws the big and the 5 is alone to get the dump off or the offensive board. Love is a rarity at the 4/5; Klay is good but I think his production is more replaceable.

  63. Here’s the link to moto’s comment above:

    http://www.awolfamongwolves.com/2014/06/ive-asked-for-one-thing-throughout-this-just-dont-get-david-lee/

    The guy has a point: Klay and Lee to the Wolves doesn’t make sense for them. Lee will be expensive and Klay will have to get a big salary to stay.

    “For the love of this Summer of Love, call up Phoenix and ask them for Markieff Morris, the 14th pick, the Lakers’ 2015 pick, and the Wolves’ pick owed in 2015 (top 12 protected in 2015 and 2016, otherwise it becomes second round picks in 2016 and 2017). Get cap relief, get a real young asset on the cheap, and get draft picks.”

    • the trade market will be significantly different in just a few weeks, change again by the end of Oct, and again by Jan.

      the Ranadive gambit has made things interesting not because it makes Sac a viable destination for love (unlikely) but because other execs might need a basic lesson in valuation — love’s preferences only matter as much as teams interested in him choose to make them. if his wishes are discounted, it’s up to seller and buyer. one or two bidders more entering a competitive auction can alter things for everyone, and a contender that loses a key player anytime while love is available might want him just to reach the post season and have a chance at winning a round or two. he doesn’t need to declare his option until next June.

  64. It appears that the Warriors don’t want Thompson because they wii have to pay him big bucks they wisely want to place elsewhere. The Wolves may think the same thing.

    One rumor now surfacing is that a three way deal is in play whereby the Lakers would receive Thompson and the Wolves receive the Lakers 7th pick and the Warriors I suspect receive Minn. 13th pick and/or Martin.

    Think Love camp has made it clear they willing to sign long term deal with Warriors if traded for.

  65. I can see the benefit of replacing Lee with Love, particularly on a team larded down with Bogut. But I agree with rgg that trading Thompson as well will result in an overall degradation of Warriors talent on both sides of the ball. Particularly if Kevin Martin is returned. He’s one of the worst defenders in league history. And he has a terrible contract.

    If I were the Warriors I would not be willing to include KT unless I had a good plan to replace him. And it appears the Warriors are thinking the same way. Sources are saying they are refusing to take KMart.

    A possible good plan: Lebron.

    • warriorsablaze

      This is the key that a lot of people are forgetting: you can’t know if it’s an overall good move until you see what other moves follow.

      KLove/Martin for Lee/Klay might be a good move as long as Martin doesn’t end up being the starting 2. His contract is less than favorable, but he’s be perfect as scoring coming off the bench.

  66. One way to value Klay is to imagine if he had played for OKC or Miami. And I say he could have put them over the top. Or imagine if he had played for Indiana or Chicago, who both had trouble finding scoring.

    Players like Klay, especially at his age and projected potential and career length, are not in great supply and they don’t come cheap. One way to realize this is to look at the contract of a much lesser player, KMart, whose remaining 3 years x $7m GSW would have to swallow if they can’t unload him.

    • Or imagine Kevin Love had played for Indiana or Chicago.

      As for KMart he is a better scorer than anyone we have coming off the bench or can get through free agency to come off the bench.

      Am I wrong?

  67. http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/11115970/golden-state-warriors-pursuit-kevin-love-hits-impasse
    “The Golden State Warriors have hit an impasse in their trade pursuit of All-Star forward Kevin Love due to what is being described as an “organizational split” on the willingness to part with prized shooting guard Klay Thompson, according to sources close to the process.”

    This is what you get when you have decision by committee.

    • Ooops. Was writing my comment when you posted, so I gave the same link. My counterargument below.

  68. You have a chance to upgrade your second best player, you do it. You add pieces later.

    You get stars so you can get other stars. All the other pieces are pawns. If you have to take back a bad contract, you do it. And I’m not convinced Kevin Martin is such a bad contract. He’s a better scorer than anyone we have on the bench or are likely to get using the MLE.

    Sure, his defense is atrocious, but if you can’t absorb that with the 3rd ranked defense in the league…come on.

    • WheresMyChippy

      “You get stars so you can get other stars.”

      Didn’t the Spurs just show (and almost showed last year but for a miracle) that this is not necessarily the way to win in today’s NBA? Sure they have a “Big 3″ but Ginobli and Duncan are not nearly what they once were. Curry > Parker, Klay > Ginobli, Lee on O.

      Admittedly this is just my preference for how the game should be played but I’d rather see us emulate the Spurs and build on what we already have than throw all our eggs in one $16 million basket..

      • WheresMyChippy

        Was supposed to read: Lee on O

      • “Didn’t the Spurs just show (and almost showed last year but for a miracle) that this is not necessarily the way to win in today’s NBA? ”

        No. They didn’t. They showed if you can get 3 future HOFers over a decade ago, you can win a lot.

        • WheresMyChippy

          Yes. They did. Who is and isn’t a future HOFer depends largely on who they play with and in what system, we could very well have three on our team right now. In THESE playoffs none of those three played like HOFers.

          What I’m saying is that the idea that you need multiple “superstars” is an overrated myth. The Spurs have shown us that. The Mavs showed us that. The Pistons showed us that.

          With the new CBA, overpaying a couple players will only leave the rest of your roster depleted and lacking what it takes to win as a TEAM.

  69. This will be interesting though. Apparently it’s West (no surprise) and Kerr (surprising to me) that oppose the trade.

    Will Lacob overrule the basketball minds here? Maybe Felty will have a change of heart if he doesn’t.

  70. Probably the most up to date rundown here:

    http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/11115970/golden-state-warriors-pursuit-kevin-love-hits-impasse

    “After it appeared that the Warriors were prepared to part with Thompson in a deal to land Minnesota’s Love, sources told ESPN.com that Hall of Fame consultant Jerry West and new Warriors coach Steve Kerr have voiced opposition to surrendering both Thompson and a future first-round pick to the Timberwolves along with former All-Star forward David Lee for Love and Wolves guard Kevin Martin.”

    Which intrigues me. Is this the first time in the Lacob regime the head coach has publicly voiced an opinion on a roster move and had a say, or at least appeared to have had one?

    Shame they can’t get Gentry’s feedback. This I really want to hear.

    But I thought they were planning to get a 1st. round pick. Instead, they’re contemplating giving up yet another future pick.

    But with the Love deal or without, GSW is poised to be no better than a one or two and done in the playoffs for the next three years and could well be strapped the years following. I made my best case above, that I’m skeptical Love would be that great for the team and that the team would suffer with the loss of Klay. But in both cases, the team lacks depth and versatility to face all teams and last a season. And the Love deal would only lock their future limit their potential for growth. KD’s contract is especially annoying.

    GSW continues to poise itself for big deals (consider how weak they would have been had the Howard deal gone through), but can’t make minor yet significant additions. What they need to do is shed bloated contracts (if they can) and restore the means to pick up players through the draft or trades.

    Really, especially under the new CBA rules, any team that strips down its squad and fattens up its salary cap with a major contract short of KD or LBJ is setting itself up for mediocrity.

    Landry and Jack, midrange players on the cheap, made a huge difference two seasons ago. They have a better core this year. What they should do is hope that Lee lasts another two seasons—and the message isn’t clear about his health—and maybe he has value as an expiring his last season (unlikely). Just picking up some kind of capable 4 and point guard, players on the order of Diaw and Mills, could put the team in very good shape next year.

    And start bringing in good prospects and developing them, giving them time to grow with the team. They will shore up the roster or become trade pieces. This might move them to the two and done level in the playoffs, though I think they could surprise. But also the team will be poised to grow, maybe eventually strike a blow with a big deal.

    It’s what the Spurs have done.

    Problem is, the team that can reach the threshold of big deals is ill equipped to made minor ones.

  71. Understand Warriors interested in Tyson Chandler. Does that mean Bogut on the block?

  72. Sheesh.

    I check in here once in awhile and see stats flying, rgg aimlessly blathering for miles, Feltbot propagandizing against successful capitalists, EZ tossing around isolated, incomplete stats. Same old, same old.

    A few points for edification:

    - Thompson is more important to the Ws than Bogut, Lee AND the entire bench. Remove any of them except Thompson and this Ws roster can win. Remove Thompson and it can’t.

    - Lee is as “done” as he chooses to be. Throughout his entire career his critical limitations have always been about strength. It’s a problem he could largely correct if he chose to. His season-end injuries indicate nothing more than poor core strength. He needs to get off the court and into a strength training program in the offseason. Every offseason, from here on out, through the end of his career.

    - Love is an incomplete player available only at huge cost. He would add shooting range to the 4 spot, but Lee is a more complete player and better teammate overall. Even today’s Lee plays more of the game than Love does.

    The notion that the current Ws roster lacks a stretch 4 is a fallacy. They have 3 of them: Green, Speights and even Lee. Green plays at 1/16 the salary of Love, Speights about 1/3, and Lee is a difficult trade on his current contract so he’s probably not going anywhere anyway. The actual fact is that the previous coach chose not to use any of those 3 except Green at stretch 4. Playing Green @ “stretch” was merely a way to minimize his offensive negatives.

    A more intelligent coach would recognize what he has at his disposal. Could Lee and Speights hit corner 3s? Oh my yes. Would they be a credible threat from there? HELL yes. And being a credible threat is the sole purpose of a stretch 4. Because in all other ways, positioning a big in the corner is a negative.

    - “A Glorified Role Player.”

    Sometimes words take odd bounces, like a football. The Hat quit being a regular contributor here largely because of that one Feltbot description of Iggy.

    In a team game, ALL players are role players. If Iggy is “merely” a role player, he’s one of the most superb role players in the history of the NBA. Pippen-plus. Havlicek-plusplus. Iggy is a problem? Check your negativity, FB.

    Amazingly, Iggy did the right thing about 99% of his time on court this season, while playing on 1.5 legs for .75 of the games. Wassamattawidat? Ans: Nothing at all. In fact, its friggin awesome.

    My friends (believe it or not, I use that word most sincerely), the Ws roster as it’s currently constructed is a championship team when properly utilized. Their primary challenge hasn’t been the roster or the ownership. A more clever coach, that’s the ticket.

    Is Kerr more clever than Jackson? Maybe not. As a rookie, we should expect him to make some mistakes, especially in the early going. But since he probably won’t try to impose “Christian purity” on the team, he’ll be able to get to the point (winning ball games!) without any side agendas. So he probably won’t be worse than Jackson in the short run, and has more upside potential in the long term.

    • “Could Lee and Speights hit corner 3s? Oh my yes. ”

      Lee’s shot has always been too flat. He can barely hit 16 foot jumpers now, let alone 22 ft ones. Sorry, but I’m not betting on this.

      • warriorsablaze

        While I disagree with you that Lee couldn’t develop a 3pt shot… the idea that he is already a credible threat from there is pure silliness. 3.8% for his career!

    • WheresMyChippy

      +1

      Thank you. I don’t understand the infatuation with Love. It must be purely stats based but as you said those are “isolated and incomplete.” Many fail to realize the context in which the stats are put up is very important.

      Love has been a loser his whole career. Number one option on a bad team is gonna put up stats. Look at what Lee did on the Knicks, very comparable to Love minus the 3pt shot.

  73. Joel Embiid 2 “stress fractures” recently — back and foot. Are these fractured (broken) bones?

    And he didn’t even take a fall or an elbow?

  74. According to ESPN, the Warriors organization is split on including Klay Thompson in the Love trade along the following lines: Jerry West and Steve Kerr opposed, Joe Lacob and Bob Myers for.

    So it’s split along the lines of basketball guys vs. neophytes.

    Anyone surprised that the spokesmodel is on Joe Lacob’s side?

    • Think Kerr will get fired, then? There’s time to find another coach.

      Actually, while I haven’t kept up fully, I don’t recall West’s making such public dissension for a long time, not since Barnes.

      In fact it’s odd that any dissension is voiced, which I assume shows a change in the organization.

      • none of the stuff that gets leaked to the bloggers should be accepted uncritically. the lacobites might (probably my guess) want to have it both ways with p.r. and how they’re perceived by potential free agents. both love and thompson are in the latter category. the woeyr brain trust (incl. ridder in marketing/p.r. who has a higher position and pay than myers) relish the chance to display for their fans and investors that they’ll do anything to improve the team. and a month from now they are likely in negotiations w. thompson father and son and agent how much he’s valued and how he can help them with the contract structure so they can further strengthen the team.

        if the inclusion of martin became an absolute requisite for Min, and the principal reason for the deal to get shelved for now, why not put on a spin that they treasure thompson highly ? as the new no experience coach kerr understandably prefers to keep the guys who’ve succeeded together rather than insert two new one-sided players. out of thompson’s 35 min., what they would be paying martin almost dictates that he’d get 20-25 min. of it. neither love nor martin are in the iguodala mold, a high hoops i.q. ‘blend’ player on both ends, and the re-tooling probably doesn’t go as smoothly as it did in iguodala’s first year.

        • They also have to promote their supposed reputation as a major player in the NBA, who always get their man (which is not remotely true). They also have to put a good spin on their going after Love and then possibly not taking him in what has emerged as a grossly expensive deal (cf. Bogut).

          I would be curious to hear what conversations they had before they met the press.

    • I feel pretty sure with Lacob the appeal is the rush of the deal. Not necessarily the basketball sense.

  75. warriorsablaze

    “… Lee is a more complete player and better teammate overall. Even today’s Lee plays more of the game than Love does.”

    There’s certainly no edification for us with statements like this… more complete player based on what aspects of the game? Shooting? No. Rebounding? No. Passing? No. Defense? A wash, at best. Getting Blocked? I’ll give you that one.

    Speights took 3x as many three’s this season than any other in his career and made 25%. Lee couldn’t even hit from 15 this season and is 1-26, a whopping 3.8% FOR HIS CAREER from three. Credible threats? Speights could get there maybe, but Lee? He’s not close no matter who is coaching.

    • WheresMyChippy

      IMO Lee is a better passer and defender than Love. He has also won nearly every matchup against Love in the four years he’s been a Warrior.

      And I believe it was Feltbot who made this point, but as far as “better teammate overall” goes, google “David Lee fights teammate” then google “Kevin Love fights teammate.”

      I would trade Lee for Love straight up, mainly because of age, but including Klay is just stupid. Klay is no where near his ceiling. Just consider that he’s played as well as he has and his coach has been Mark Jackson his whole career. Now that we have Gentry expect the Splash Brothers to take it to a whole new level of amazing.

      • warriorsablaze

        Lee averages almost half as many assists with better offensive players around him… and Love is well known for his outlet passing. Lee is a very good passer, and their passing skills may be different, but I’m not sure if the difference you see amounts to more than homerism.

        I haven’t paid enough attention to Love’s defense to make much of a claim, but I recall someone on GSOM comparing their D stats and Love came out ahead in all of them for what it’s worth. D stats are still not that compelling, but I HAVE watched enough Lee to know he’s an average-ish on-ball defender in certain match-ups and an absolutely horrific team defender.

        Lee may have Love in the teammate department, but Love isn’t exactly a cancer, either. Jordan punched Kerr in the face once… I’ll take the vastly superior player.

        • jordan gave kerr a bloody lip in practice because he relished the alpha male display routine, and later admitted kerr gained credibility in his eyes from the incident, culminating in kerr getting the ball from jordan to hit a winner in the finals. word from Min is, love wants the alpha contract without bringing the leadership.

        • A suggestion: If you’re going to compare assists, compare usage rates as well.

          Off the top of my head, it’s my impression that Love was featured in the TWolves offense far more than Lee. I also believe that Lee is every bit as good a passer as Love, given the opportunity. It has perplexed me to no end over the years that the Warriors’ rookie coaches have suppressed the fastbreak, and Lee’s superb outlet abilities.

          As far as Love’s leadership and qualities as a teammate go, I’ve read enough to have some concerns. There’s a reek of selfishness surrounding him, that could very well be reflected in his team’s persistent underachievement.

          • I think that’s my greatest suspicion, that Love has been tainted by all the star treatment he has received since college. Love said he’d like to play for the Spurs. I can’t see it. He’s not a Pop selfless player.

            Maybe that’s unfair. Maybe he hasn’t been given a chance to really prove himself yet on a good team, maybe he will shake the glitter off. But it will take some work and grit on his part, if he has it.

            The box scores haven’t impressed many, and this probably won’t either, but one of the intangibles Lee has is that he is a good soldier who fights hard, regardless. He has battled for uninspired coaches and too often and too long incomplete rosters, without complaint, without letting up, for years now, which has earned him no respect.

            I still don’t think the rap on Lee’s defense is fair. A smallish PF, he has had to take on some really tough match-ups against more physical and faster 4s, or against much larger 5s, as you keep pointing out. I still wonder if he’s in a tough position otherwise on defense, given Bogut’s limited range. He’s always had a much larger area of the court to cover. But team defense was good this year.

            The question is how well Love will perform on defense under the same conditions. And if they go small, how will Love perform at center?

            This was an especially bad year to evaluate Lee, when you look at the way Jackson played him, painful to watch. Post up, post up, post up—often against much larger players. Less pick and roll, and I don’t believe he “lost” his midrange shot, but was told not to use it. If he was losing confidence, the coach needed to encourage him, give him the green light, and shot training, if he needed it. None of which happened.

            Duncan, btw, can’t hit the 3 and won’t take it.

          • warriorsablaze

            Of course, plain counting stats aren’t that useful out of context, but the reality is that all of us here have watched Lee play 100′s of games, and probably not more than a handful of Love’s… hardly much basis for the “eye-test” unless you want to cherry pick a few games and draw sweeping conclusions from them.

            The differences in passing and defense are probably negligible…with each having different strengths and weaknesses. Love’s offensive game and rebounding put him on another tier above Lee.

            As for the attitude, I don’t know…. perhaps it’s the persistent underachievement and drudgery of Minnesota life that is reflected in the attitude. :)

  76. The trade of Lee and Thompson trade for Love And Martin only makes sense if the Warriors were to receive Minn 13th pick of the first round pick. And there is a sliver of hope that
    ninn ,will do so as the draft approaches.

    Since that is not on the table a trade of Thompson to the Lakers that would involve the Warriors receiving the Lakers 7th pick in the first round would be good as the Warriors would free themselves of the financial hole they created facing resigning Thompson to a contract that far exceeds what his true value is.

    The Warriors are not likely to rise to the top of the NBA the next three years as Lee ages and has to play with the often injured Bogut unless the Warriors are able to unload Bogut.

    So the Warriors have to start to get their house in order. Getting a high draft choice for Thompson would be a good start.

    • your estimation that the woeyrs aren’t likely to climb into the top tier (for me, the final four, or top three western teams) in the next two years is probably accurate, Frank. however, trading thompson for the seventh pick in the draft could easily knock them out of the post season — they weren’t that far ahead of Phx with him.

  77. Moto: have to disagree. Thompson gives the Warriors no extra possessions in a game, takes 15.4 field goal attempts and scores only 18.4 points off so many field goal attempts. Quite sure with the no. 7 pick we can obtain a player who is way more efficient. And we won’t have to resign Thompson at an inflated salary that would prevent us from spending money and obtaining a good player.

    • warriorsablaze

      Barnes was a 7th pick…and so was Curry. There certainly are no guarantees in the draft.

  78. Sigh. I don’t even want to comment on this. I am reminded, however, of the commercial that started the season of Steph ‘n Barnes as Hansel and Gretel.

    The NBA is a fairy tale. . . .

  79. If we obtain the 7th pick I would draft the best player available and such may be influenced by whether we can trade Barnes or even lee for that matter. If a SF was available and is better than a SG available, I would draft the SF and pair him in the backcourt with Curry. Time to think outside the box and revolutionize the game.

  80. Kerr on Gentry, four years ago:

    Suns General Manager Steve Kerr, who won championships with Jackson in Chicago and Popovich in San Antonio, said that Gentry is the only coach he knows who is as comfortable in his own skin as those two NBA coaching icons.

    “It’s very rare,” Kerr said. “I think a lot of it comes from experience. With Pop, I saw it evolve. And Phil was always like that when I knew him. But Alvin has coached for so long. He has said that if he ever got another opportunity (as a head coach) he was going to do it his own way.

    ” . . . He’s just reached such a level of comfort and confidence where he’s just going to do what he feels is right. And the nice thing is everybody has so much faith in him – the players, management, ownership – that it’s the perfect situation for him to flourish.

    “Feeling comfortable in your own skin is being able to coach without fear and being able to be who you are and not worry about what somebody is going to say.”

    http://www.azcentral.com/sports/suns/articles/2010/05/27/20100527phoenix-suns-alvin-gentry-impact.html

    Which speaks well for both Kerr and Gentry, and might help explain why Gentry came over.

    And I do hope the coaches will be freed to talk to the press, and am pretty sure they will be. Gentry has a great sense of humor (again while at Phoenix):

    “Alvin Gentry jokes that when he’s ticked off at Steve Nash, he yells at Lou Amundson.”

    And players respect and like him:

    “I’ve played for some pretty good coaches,” Amare Stoudemire said, “but Alvin Gentry, he’s definitely on top.”

    Channing Frye, whose dormant NBA career blossomed as one of the Suns’ top 3-point shooting threats, called Gentry “an honest coach.”

    “He gives it to you straight up,” Frye said. “He allows you to just grow, he instills confidence, and those things really make up who we are. Without him, we wouldn’t be where we are right now.”

    http://www.theoaklandpress.com/general-news/20100515/former-detroit-pistons-coach-alvin-gentry-makes-mark-on-phoenix-suns

    I’m starting to look forward to in-game and post-game interviews.

    • And I guess it’s safe to repeat this Gentry bit from Seven Seconds:

      Stories get into Gentry’s head and never leave. He tells another one from Miami, about a player named Ladell Eckles who stood up during a team meeting and wrote on the board: “No Your roll.” Glen Rice said, “Sit down, dumb ass.”

    • Gentry’s ability to connect with players is not trivial. Maybe it’s not fair to Kerr, but I wonder if he is good here himself, given his reserve. This is especially needed after the player’s bad feelings over MJax’s firing.

      Also, with Gentry’s sense of humor, the locker room should loosen up.

      And we finally got some pepper on the table.

    • Felt, you should be the first one in line telling him why he’s wrong.

      • Is he?

        • Absolutely. Whatever spacing Klay brings, Kevin Love will bring tenfold. You know that.

          I know you like David Lee. I know you like Klay. But come on. Kevin Love gives you everything those two give you and more.

          • I’m tremendously skeptical of this, and wonder if it can’t be refuted by a simple discussion of physics, of time and space. It’s not just how much space you can open up, but how quickly. The faster you challenge a defense, the more you disrupt them and open up shots.

            Klay presents high percentage threats everywhere, and can present those threats quickly, forcing mismatches and other disruption in the defense. I’m assuming, of course, the Warriors push the tempo (finally). This is what Gentry is all about.

            How good is Love at facilitating or completing fast breaks, anyway? I don’t know.

            Love, to be sure, will draw the 4 out and open the lane, presenting the threat of driving, passing, or taking the shot, but will do so more slowly. But KMart lacks Klay’s speed and versatility, and will be easier to cover. Iguodala’s offense is spotty. Most, Love may draw the 4 out, but, because of Bogut’s offensive weakness, the opposing center will be free to roam the lane. Thus Love will have fewer outlets should he choose to pass. If he drives, he is likely to be covered by the center. Other defenders will be freed, perhaps to double Love if he shoots. Or force him into long shots. My fear is he’ll simply stay out and pump shots, which the opposing team will be willing to concede. And that won’t do anything to get the others in the game.

            Of course he can pass to Curry, but without Klay, he’ll be a much easier cover.

            Give Lee his midrange shot back and present that as a threat, the option of pick and roll or pick and pop, where he is good. Maybe he doesn’t open up as much space, but Duncan is effective doing the same.

          • cosmicballoon

            Love will ignite fast breaks that Iggy and Curry finish. The outlet passing is one of Love’s most valuable skills.

            As far as the roster goes, I think the Warriors realize that this year they will be thin at 2 if they trade Thompson. They have no one to replace him. Also, looking forward, I don’t think they are thrilled about having to max Curry and Love and having Bogut, Martin and Iggy on the books. Don’t be surprised if they dump Lee (or even better, Bogut) regardless of the outcome of the Love deal. (And by dump, I mean unload the contract for expirings or picks). Lacob is finally understanding how big salary moves (Bogut and Iggy) can cripple your team.

          • Lee can facilitate fast breaks as well.

            Love trade or no Love trade, they’ll still be short a backup 4. Green just isn’t quite big enough or versatile enough on offense. And if the Love deal happens, Love will have to play heavy minutes with tough assignments, as Lee has done. It’s not a formula for longevity.

            Any kind of midrange 4 would help, and see if they can get some prospects started. Fill in the other slots. This would give them a competitive team now with flexibility for the future.

          • warriorsablaze

            Green is a perfect back up 4… And has shown he can bang down low with the bigs when needed. Besides, we have your man Speights… We’re much thinner at the 1 and 2, even if Klay stays.

    • From MT’s piece:

      “The Warriors are at a fork in the road, and it shows in the reported split among management on which direction to take.”

      As moto says above, this has to be a PR move, orchestrated from the top. Since when did they take votes, since when did Lacob not have the overriding say? Obviously Lacob will have control over what Kerr says, and West has guarded his comments since his mild, ambiguous dissension over Barnes. Image matters to this organization, and if a split is reported, it’s because they want this to be seen. They sure took a hit in the Lacob/Jackson split they tried so hard to cover.

      Instead, they’re putting a good face on a possible decision to pull out of a trade that is looking worse and worse. Apparently GSW is giving up a future pick, not gaining one this year, plus KMart and his contract. And they’re using the Logo once more to make such a move look good as well as counter any suspicion he is just a figurehead.

      They are also presenting the image of an organization guided by respected basketball minds, hard to do before because before there weren’t any [bracket West, as always].

      And they are promoting Lacob’s decision to hire a rookie coach—Kerr—and give him big bucks, and grant him status and the appearance of authority.

      Which doesn’t mean, however, that West and Kerr aren’t against the deal or that they weren’t listened to, which, maybe, just maybe, is a good sign.

  81. Bogut + Barnes for Tyson Chandler? Chandler’s contract is up next year.

    Just dreaming.

    • The trade was contemplated here:

      http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2105706-tyson-chandler-trade-rumors-latest-buzz-speculation-surrounding-knicks-star

      “Golden State could dangle Bogut in trade talks. Elite rim protectors are an increasingly desired commodity, and Bogut played in 67 games during the regular season before a rib fracture cost him his postseason. The Warriors might be able to find a market for him on a win-now team desperate for a splash.”

    • The trade works in the trade machine. Hollinger’s “analysis” projects it at -1 win for GSW, no change for the Knicks. Ha.

    • cosmicballoon

      Don’t forget we have Ezeli coming back this season. Who knows if he will even be close to the same defensive presence he was before, but if he is, we don’t need Tyson Chandler who is over the hill at this point in his career, and may even be more of a liability than Bogut. I would not make that trade unless the expiring contract is the specific target.

      • The expiring contract is the attraction. Chandler, if he has anything left, is more mobile and more of a two-way player. The health of either is a gamble and a debate we won’t be able to resolve, but with Chandler, it is only a one-year gamble.

        As it is, the team still needs to have backup centers, given doubts about Ezeli and Bogut. And they will need to think about a Bogut replacement before long. Maybe they save some bucks and come up with an adequate replacement—and spend the money on the other positions.

        Plus they get rid of Barnes. Getting rid of Barnes will give more minutes to Green and force them to develop other players. I don’t think this cost has been considered seriously enough—how Barnes’ minutes kept the rest of the bench from developing.

    • I’ve come around to the view the Warriors should trade Lee and Thompson for Love and Martin, even if they have to give up a future 1st round pick only because Love is one of the best players in the NBA who will not be stopped in a playoff game. Although Martin’s contract is excessive he can be moved down the road and offensively he’s as good as Thompson. And a future no. 1 pick has little value as the Warriors should be drafting less than 20 for years to come and can likely purchase a first round pick. Lacob-Myers right, West-Kerr wrong. Get Love. Time to be bold. Lee’s value will diminish in future years.

  82. If I recall, Lacob wanted Drummond, and West wanted Barnes. The “basketball guys” aren’t always right.

    • West did not want Barnes. Lacob wanted Barnes.

    • According to what I’ve read, you’ve got this wrong. Lacob and Myers wanted Barnes and West didn’t. Lacob himself stated that Barnes was his decision, after being enormously impressed by Barnes in his one on one interview.

      Also read that Lacob didn’t want Drummond.

      Do you have any sources that state differently?

  83. The Warriors do not have a single guy who can disrupt a defense via penetration. Not Curry. Not Klay. Not Barnes (lol). We have a bunch of perimeter threats. At some point there is diminishing returns.

    Sure Klay forces perimeter defenders to guard him tightly away from the rim, but how much does that help his teammates? I would say not nearly as much as a true 3-pt shooting big who can draw an opposing big away from the rim. Look at the matchup nightmare that Bosh created for the Pacers. They couldn’t even afford to leave Hibbert in the game. And Love is a much better and much more prolific 3-pt shooter than Bosh.

    You think small ball with Lee and Draymond was great? Wait until you see Draymond + Love. That’s going to be a matchup nightmare for opposing defenses.

    • I think you’ve gone off the deep end. Do you think Love is as good a finisher as DLee? As good in pick and roll? Pretty sure that Lee scored more inside baskets than anyone in the league last year.

      I agree that Love is a deeply to be desired stretch-4. He’ll clearly be more effective than Lee in lineups with Bogut. But to automatically assume he’ll be better than Lee in lineups with Draymond, with a coach like Gentry who is a master of pick and roll, is patently absurd.

      It’s also not supported by their head to head matchups over the last three years. Even though Love was in an offense that featured him, and Lee in an offense in which he was the second or third option.

  84. Also would do the Bogut-Barnes trade for the Knicks Chandler just to get rid of Bogut’s lengthy contract and not see Barnes in a Warriors uniform.

  85. EvanZ: Thanks for not arguing anymore that Chandler is better than Delabart. And while you point out that Calderon is not a good defender and such is backed up by opponents shooting 53.3 percent against him, opponent’s shoot 48 percent against Felton. The differential of 5.3 percent that Felton has defensively does not offset the 14 percent shooting percentage advantage that Calderon has on the offensive end.

    In most cases when a player shoots much better than his opponents it’s difficult to argue that his being a poor defender than his opponent has much validity.

    That’s one reason that I find that arguments that Love is not a good defender somewhat askew given how superior he is shooting than the player that he guarded. But there are cases when such is not true.

    Also, New York received Ellington who shot an effective shooting percentage of 54 percent, and it should be noted that the Knicks did quite well with Larkin on the court in the few minutes he played. Also it appears that the Knicks obtained a number of good players in the draft.

    As I initially said the Knicks did quite well in the draft.