The Lowe of the Herd: My Answer to Zach Lowe on the Kevin Love to the Warriors Trade

Zach Lowe of Grantland has just written a characteristically thorough and instructive look at the conundrum the Warriors are facing in trying to trade for Kevin Love. He concludes that the Warriors should make the deal happen, regardless of the pain of swallowing Kevin Martin’s contract.

He might prove right about that in the end, but for what it’s worth I believe he’s made several crucial errors in his analysis.       

The difference between the Wolves’ top 5 offense and the Warriors’ offense last season was not the difference between Love and Lee. It was the difference between Pekovich and Bogut. (And Adelman and Jackson.)

Pek is a dominant inside scorer and free throw shooter, who WANTS THE BALL, and DEMANDS A DOUBLE TEAM.

Bogut is the exact opposite. A player who is afraid to catch in traffic, and petrified to attack the rim in pick and roll. So petrified he usually doesn’t even look at Curry in the pick and roll, let alone actually roll. A player who is on the verge of out-Biedrinsing Biedrins in his determined avoidance of the free throw line, and agonized paralysis once he gets there.

Bogut averaged 1 free throw attempt a game last year. ONE. And shot 34%.

Big Pek averaged 4.6 FTA, and shot 75%.

And averaged over 17 points a game.

Do you think Big Pek attracted the defense’s attention away from Kevin Love at all? With Bogut, it was the exact opposite. His defenders barely looked at him. And when Curry and Lee ran pick and roll, Bogut’s defender was front and center under the rim. Eyes forward. Waiting.

Lowe seems to think Curry/Bogut pick and roll with Love spreading the floor will become a thing if the Warriors do this trade. It makes you wonder if he’s ever even watched the Warriors play. If he had, he would know that there is no such thing as Curry/Bogut pick and roll. There is Bogut high pick, followed by Bogut standing at the top of the key while Curry receives a vicious blitz. Followed by one of three actions: 1) Curry swings the ball to a third player on the wing; 2) Curry waits out the double, then returns to Bogut for another pick that will hopefully free him for a quick jumper; or 3) Curry passes to the wide open Bogut at the top of the key, who stands there with the ball, or takes one or two hesitant dribbles, until he can find a teammate to dump it off to.

I won’t even mention the fact that Kerr has stated his intention to use Bogut posted up in the triangle. Because hopefully the real NBA coaches on the Warriors staff (Alvin Gentry) will disabuse him of that notion fast.

The fact of the matter, lost to Lowe, is that acquiring Kevin Love will do nothing to open up the Warriors pick and roll. When Love is Curry’s pick and roll partner, he will encounter the same monstrous obstacle parked and waiting at the rim that David Lee did: Bogut’s man. (And if you think Love will be better at finishing over that obstacle than Lee, you will be sorely disappointed.)

As for Andrew Bogut pick and roll, THERE IS NO SUCH THING. No matter how well Love spreads the floor.

What the acquisition of Kevin Love will open up for Curry and the Warriors, is PICK AND POP. And that, admittedly, will be the most lethal pick and pop in the league, and an incredible boon to Stephen Curry’s game.

But will that addition to the offense be enough to overcome the utter hamstringing of the Warriors’ finances created by Kevin Martin’s horrid and useless contract? Lowe himself points to the many new holes in the Warriors roster that will be created by the deal. No one to shield Curry from guarding point guards. No money for a veteran back-up point guard. No money for a sixth man. (Oh, is KMart going to be the sixth man? Well then, as noted in my last post, the Warriors will be starting 3 non-scorers alongside Curry and Love, and I will bet any amount of money that the Warriors will not be a top 10 offense, let alone a top 5 offense, playing that way. So what was the point again?)

One final point. Lowe utterly fails to consider the biggest of all holes in the Warriors roster that this trade will both create, and prevent the Warriors from being able to fix:

Andrew Bogut and Kevin Martin.

Who will stand in for them, come playoff time?

302 Responses to The Lowe of the Herd: My Answer to Zach Lowe on the Kevin Love to the Warriors Trade

  1. You left the other side of the court open: what happens to Warrior defense if they make this trade?

    It will have to be worse by some margin. All the answers to plug up the gaps return the same results, put in the defensive players with limited offense, who will leave the offense shorthanded. KMart will have to get his minutes for scoring, but will Love be able to cover the large area he’ll have to roam and catch penetrators who get by the weak perimeter of KMart and Curry?

    Just how adequate a defender is Love, and can anyone form an opinion based on the Wolves’ defensive stats? 10th in point differential vs. 4th for the Warriors; 25th in points allowed vs. 8th for the Warriors. First note that they do have a large, imposing center.

    Which brings me back to my two hunches:

    1. Love is, of course, a very fine player, but is he overpriced? Is he good enough to justify the displacement that will be caused by his salary? And if he doesn’t have a scoring center, should he go to other teams, will his scoring go down?

    2. This trade simply may not make the Warriors that much better, that they have other pressing matters to take care of to take the next step in the playoffs.

  2. Lacob appears no longer willing to take back Martins contract. Saving his ammo for LBJ?

  3. The two things I saw back to back on Real GM wiretap intrigue me-

    “RealGM Basketball

    Jun 25, 2014 1:15 PM EDT

    The Golden State Warriors continue to be reluctant in including Klay Thompson in their trade package for Kevin Love.

    At least one member of the Warriors’ front office is so high on Thompson that he wouldn’t trade him in a straight-up deal for Love, according to a source.

    It had been believed that the Warriors and Minnesota Timberwolves had agreed upon the central parts of a trade with Love and Kevin Martin coming to the Warriors for Thompson and David Lee.

    The Warriors have reservations about whether upgrading from Lee to Love is not worth parting with Thompson.

    Kevin Love Uninterested In Re-Signing With Cavs Amid Talks For No. 1 Pick
    Jun 25, 2014 1:59 PM EDT

    The Cleveland Cavaliers pushed for a trade for Kevin Love with the Minnesota Timberwolves centered on the No. 1 overall pick.

    But Love made clear that he would not re-sign with the Cavaliers and that has killed talks.

    Love appears to prefer a trade to the Golden State Warriors.”

    The first story tells me we are clearly posturing to build up Klay’s value, hopefully to avoid Martin. There is NO way this line is true, there is no one this dumb still in the organization-

    “At least one member of the Warriors’ front office is so high on Thompson that he wouldn’t trade him in a straight-up deal for Love, according to a source.”

    Now the second piece from Woj point blank says Love wants to go to GSW, giving us a ton of leverage. If I look at this from the bird’s eye, and perhaps I’m optimistic, but this appears to be a master negotiating ploy that is working.

    This could be good!

    We shall see…

    • “At least one member of the Warriors’ front office is so high on Thompson that he wouldn’t trade him in a straight-up deal for Love, according to a source.”

      Believe this comes from Marcus Thompson (who tweeted it), who is very credible in my book. Guessing the recalcitrant is Jerry West, whom I believe could very well hold this opinion.

      Unless the source is part of a cabal, and this is simply a ploy, as you suggest.

  4. Obviously, my hunch is very optimistic. Perhaps I am giving them too much credit. But, in my summation, no one in the world would not do Klay for Love straight up. Maybe RGG, who probably has a few hundred more pages on it, but no one else I have encountered. That swap is a financial impossibility with the CBA, but that statement is hard ball. “There is no way in hell we would X” “Okay, you’re twisting my arm” could be brilliant, utilizing the busy kitchen to play good cop bad cop. I may be giving too much credit, but that plus Love potentially saying “I want to go to GSW” is MAJOR power in a negotiation. This could be fun!

    • Would TWolves do Love for Klay straight up?

      Not that we could even offer that without including Lee. In turn, TWolves need to dump salary (and receive compensation) for taking Lee…

      I don’t see a good way to simplify the deal, and the one on the table is of dubious worth.

    • Love straight up for Klay is obviously theatre. But actually, Lee and Love in the front court is kind of interesting. (21 words, McG)

  5. Just tried barnes/klay/lee for love/turiaf on trade machine and it worked. If they gave us the 13th pick, I would do it in a heartbeat.
    I only threw in turiaf bec it wouldn’t let me do the pick…

  6. Felty, if getting Martin got you the 13th pick and excluding him did not, would you do it considering you could split it over 5 years on cap as Lowe suggested?

  7. lee/klay for love straight up also works

    • In the end, if Klay is the best asset/player offered to the TWolves they will be the ones making concessions.

      If you look back at these kinds of trades, it’s always the best player involved that makes the difference, not the bits and pieces surrounding him.

  8. I’m convinced now the Dubs were just negotiating against themselves. No need to rush into anything now.

    • I heard the TWolves made a “promise” to Zach LaVine for the 13th pick. That’s interesting because I have a feeling he’s the guy the Warriors FO could be targeting with that pick.

      • Wings should be drafted for defense. This guy looks like another Jeremy Lamb.

        • I don’t disagree with that. Maybe even worse. If I had the 13th pick I’d take Anderson if he was available.

    • the market will be in peak volatility between the start of the draft and late Oct.; a team should be completely sure of their objective and what it’s worth to make a deal now. apparently, Dal was convinced carlisle could revive chandler and the player in turn would revive the team, combined with the greater jackson in liquidation phase during price negotiations.

  9. Felt, if we could end up with Parsons and Lin in a separate deal, would you be more willing to take back Martin? (I don’t even know if that can theoretically happen, but say it was a possibility.)

    • What do we trade for Parsons and Lin?

      The consolation prize I’ve been looking at is Channing Frye. Warriors apparently interested.

      • “What do we trade for Parsons and Lin?”

        Nevermind, it was based on something that idiot Broussard said about “being told” the Warriors are “willing to take Lin if Parsons was attached”. lol, like we’d be willing to take LeBron too. ;)

      • cosmicballoon

        David Lee for Lin and Parsons. It currently works in the trade machine. From the Rocket’s perspective, they get a scoring power forward to play next to Howard and the Warriors get their backup point guard and a shooting guard to replace Klay…who will likely be traded to Minnesota. (I am not usually into this trade talk, so I am not expert. But with Lebron opting out, and all the Love talk, things have gotten very interesting this season).

    • Parsons acc. to most reports was deliberately given restricted free agent status by Hou to give them the greatest flexibility in retaining him. he was a critical ‘glue’ player for them, given the mercurial nature of both of the team’s supposed ‘leaders’, harden and howard. he’s only getting away from Hou if they’re forced into adjustments from a major acquisition like anthony (love, james). one of their major hurdles has been cleared if asik has a new home.

  10. cosmicballoon

    Feltbot, the Greek Freak was interviewed and said he’s grown two inches since he joined the NBA. Was 6’9″ and now up to 6’11”. Wow.

  11. The Warriors are going to have to make some good, not great, deals just to maintain status quo. It looks like almost everyone is getting better, or is poised to get better with cap space and draft picks. Dallas just got better with Chandler and can make another strike. New Orleans picked up Asik. Phoenix has three picks today and all kinds of cap room. Etc.

    I’m skeptical the Lee/Klay Love/Martin deal makes the Warriors a great team, or even significantly better, as some of you are tired of hearing. I’m tremendously skeptical any Lebron deal is possible. Will Myers/Kerr impress him as much as Pat Riley? Even if we get Love and somehow money is freed up, is Lebron sold on him? Or Curry, for that matter, who will change the way he plays? And you know Lebron is going to talk with other players, as he did before, and will choose those he knows and is comfortable with.

    But also going after big deals may cut the Warriors out of good deals as they wait and try to make them work and other good players get taken. I’m not sure how this works. I suspect you have to be deeply involved to know how it works. Their futile attempts to get Chandler and Jordan years ago meant dumping Lin and Reggie Williams, I think, and left them stranded with Kwame Brown. The horribly expensive Bogut deal took them out of other deals and left them with roster and cap problems. Then there was the Howard bid. They did have a plan B, Iguodala, which proved expensive in several ways. Did they have a good plan C? In all cases, other options (at other positions) were not considered and they were left to take whoever was left over. They got lucky with Jack and Landry, available cheap and at a good price, but they were one-year rentals.

    As it is, they can’t make a great deal without losing some essential player. They have no attractive minor players or picks to bargain with. The players I’d like to dump to free up cap space—Bogut and Barnes—may not be that attractive anywhere. It’s not clear, either, the FO is willing to give them up. Lee is really the only other option, but they have to pick up something similar at 4, in short supply, and his contract is an obstacle. I’d hate to give up on Iguodala just yet.

  12. Fwiw, Iggy just spoke out against giving up Klay for Love.

    • cosmicballoon

      We know what happens when a Warriors player speaks up about keeping someone (Curry — Jackson). Bye bye Klay.

      • late in the season iguodala publicly let the team know they were playing for their coach’s job — and he personally fell short of delivering enough to preserve the preacher for a second playoff round at least.
        soon after joining the team last summer, iguodala declared how much he thought of thompson and began the season playing like he was intent on making thompson an all star, a trajectory truncated of course by injury. he no doubt enjoys playing with a wing who not only spreads the floor on offense, but he doesn’t need to cover thompson’s mistakes and blunders on defense either. the lacobites might just decide having three wings at the same time who can play d and make 3’s is a luxury they can’t afford if they want to be a destination for ‘premier stars’.

  13. Iggy is recruiting Channing Frye, confirming Warriors interest in him.

    But do they understand that Frye is a stretch-FIVE, not four?

  14. If we could get Frye, keep Klay, and you told me there was a good shot at signing Marc Gasol next season….I’ll take it.

  15. To get the best player in a trade one usually has to give up more. Nellie realized that in getting Nash. The guy in the front office who would rather have Thompson over Love does not speak well for those in the decision making process.

    Iggy has overstepped in speaking out and saying that the Warriors shoulf make the trade for Love.

    Lacob has already jeopardized the deal for Love
    by not jumping on it immediately.

    We don’t get Love, we’ll never in the near future go anywhere.

    • “The guy in the front office who would rather have Thompson over Love does not speak well for those in the decision making process.”

      You mean Jerry West?

  16. Feltbot’s tweet got me curious. Ann Coulter:

    “If more ‘Americans’ are watching soccer today, it’s only because of the demographic switch effected by Teddy Kennedy’s 1965 immigration law. I promise you: No American whose great-grandfather was born here is watching soccer. One can only hope that, in addition to learning English, these new Americans will drop their soccer fetish with time.”

    Several generations of middle and upper class soccer moms are going to have to pack up their Volvo station wagons and head for the borders.

    Isn’t AC a doll?

  17. The Spurs getting Anderson…jesus…the one team in the league that will figure out how to utilize him.

  18. Felt, have you considered the stretch provision with respect to Martin?

    • I don’t follow cap stuff closely. My feeling still is that even if stretched the deal would leave the Warriors with a more problematic roster, and less money to fix it.

  19. I did not know whether to laugh or cry when I read this old article.

    It discusses how nobody questioned whether it was worth it to the Knicks to trade David Lee to get Stoudemire in the hopes that Stoudemire would attract Lebron James back in 2010.

    They say history repeats itself. But they’ve said that before.

    Lee has skills, and a hell of a lot of heart. Every team needs guys like that.

    • cosmicballoon

      Staudemire’s is the worst contract in basketball. $23.4M next season and the guy has been washed up for at least 3 years.

      Compare Lee and his production over the same years and you can see why the Knicks are in such a bad spot.

  20. I think Minnesota took LaVine for us.

    • la Vine shares a couple of attributes with barnes — combine performance very good, tournament performance, not very, and the touts will say that his game will blossom in the pros. if he lands in oaktown, it would be completely contrary to west’s explicit preference for players who are ready to contribute, and it probably means thompson goes, also contra-west.

    • warriorsablaze

      Thoughts on that if true? I didn’t pay attention to this year’s class at all so all I have is the DExpress scouting report I just read. A little too Barnes-like for my comfort. Athletic, but with poor handles and an inefficient scorer. Also considered a poor defender without solid fundamentals and “average” intensity on that end. Doesn’t get me excited.. but maybe someone who’s seen him play has more to say?

      • I am not a fan. I would have rather had either of the other two UCLA guys.

        My guess is Bob Myers sees him as the next Russell Westbrook.

        • superficially, laVine resembles brent barry without a mid range jumper as much as he does westbrook.

          • cosmicballoon

            +1 Moto and EZ. What’s funny is that LaVine was basically a glorified role player at UCLA with Anderson and Adams as the two main threats. In fact, I just looked up his stats and he only started 1 game all season!! He was a 6th man on a decent UCLA team that probably over-achieved because Anderson is such a unique player.

            If he’s included in a deal with Love, he’ll almost certainly be sitting the bench in GS for at least a whole season while he gets his NBA legs. That is, if he is even an NBA talent. I think a lot of GMs outsmart themselves when it comes to the draft. Why did UCONN’s Napier drop all the way down to #24? He’s a very good point guard with a strong work ethic and smarts. What else do you want?

          • Why did Anderson drop to the Spurs?! It’s only going to be a year or two until we have to listen to TNT talking about how Spurs are so magical in recognizing and developing talent. Well, given the results and how they compare to the rest of the league, maybe that’s fair. lol

          • cosmicballoon

            Anderson plays below the rim and is very slow. He is a fiery competitor though. A totally unique player and I wonder what his NBA career will look like. He can’t really guard anyone…except maybe stretch 4s or 1-dimensional 3s.

            Adams was the NBA level athlete for UCLA.

          • “Adams was the NBA level athlete for UCLA.”

            Clearly you did not watch Adams play. He’s about as unathletic as they come.

            I think you mean LaVine was the NBA level athlete.

          • cosmicballoon

            EZ, yes. Oops! The end of the week caught up with me.

  21. Yesterday was a bad day for the Warriors as virtually all the western Conference teams improved and the Warriors management sat on their hands.

    Now we have till July 10th to try to make up ground by trading their $9 million dollar plus draft exemption for a player or lose the trade exemption. Stay tuned.

    Not good to complain about The size of Martin’s contract without know it could be pro-rated and stretched out. Seems like Lacob didn’t know that either.

    • It was a great day. Love wasn’t traded to any team for draft picks. That was supposedly the big attraction that teams like Boston and Phoenix had going for them.

  22. Nice to see what Phil Jackson is accomplishing in New York. Obtained seven players in last two days. Wish we had a bold front office.

    • Jackson made triangle-centric moves that actually subtracted from the team’s net talent. Is that what you suggest we do?

      Chandler clearly the best player in the deal- but not a post player.

      Calderon perfect for the triangle – more of a spot up shooter than a point guard. And he’s a friend of Bargnani’s. And he will be used to help recruit Pau.

      And Pau will recruit Marc next year.

      • “Calderon perfect for the triangle – more of a spot up shooter than a point guard. And he’s a friend of Bargnani’s. And he will be used to help recruit Pau.

        And Pau will recruit Marc next year.”

        NBA social network. It’s a thing.

  23. One of the things I’ve been thinking about more and more lately is the idea of stars recruiting other stars. I think that’s fairly obvious to everyone. The “social network” effect in the NBA.

    But even at a lesser level, look at the recent “chatter” that Iguodala is recruiting Channing Frye. Now, if that does come to pass, how much more “hidden” value does Iguodala have than we recognize on the court? I know Felt is not a big Iggy fan, perhaps, on the court, but he seems to be adding quite a bit of value to the team. Also see his hyping up of Klay.

    Conversely, would Love be able to recruit other stars like LeBron or KD? I’m not so sure. In the current state of the NBA, it seems a GM has to actively think about signing “centers of attraction” even if their “on paper” value (let’s say RAPM) may make them less attractive. For example, would I sign Melo in a vacuum? No. Would I sign Melo if I knew LeBron was attached? Hell yes.

    • Have you heard how much Love’s TWolves teammates disliked him? I heard quite a bit about this on the radio yesterday.

      Could it be that Love might have a negative effect on recruiting?

      • Love’s reputation lies wholly in his stats. You have to wonder how he rates in the intangibles.

      • “Could it be that Love might have a negative effect on recruiting?”

        I think the same might be said for David Lee. Or at least a neutral effect. Also Bogut might have a negative effect. Does anybody really like that guy?

        Have either of these guys helped recruit a single player to the Warriors?

        • must be just a coincidence that lee, bogut, love are in the top compensation tier of pale faced players. there’s all that social networking stuff that everyone talks about as well.

  24. The draft report on LaVine WaB mentioned is just stunning, especially for a 13th pick:

    “Where LaVine struggled this season was when he was forced to take more responsibility upon himself and create offense in the half-court in pick and roll or one on one situations. He’s just an average ball-handler, as he doesn’t do a great job of reading defenses and playing at different speeds, and struggles badly finishing through contact around the basket, particularly with his left hand.”

    You have to wonder if the whole development/drafting process hasn’t created a system that is ambiguous if not self-defeating. (I’m reminded of how colleges are starting to question SAT’s because students have found ways to trick the test.)

    To get drafted in the NBA, you have to:

    1. Have the right size for your position, along with athleticism

    2. Develop that athleticism, in ways that will show in draft measurements (speed, leaping ability, etc.)

    3. Have a fairly good shot, especially a 3 point shot now, and a good drive

    4. When young, play in limited competition situations (high school, AAU) that will allow you to display and perfect those shots, though you will find it fairly easy to get them off

    5. Play for a brand name school (UCLA, UNC, etc.)

    6.Make some kind of run in the NCAA tourney (which won’t be hard since those schools draw other highly regarded players).

    7. Hope you are drafted by the NBA after one or two seasons, before your weakness might be fully exposed and your draft potential declines, when your potential will be more seriously questioned. Also, with all the player movement, you may not be able to count on your team making a good appearance in the tourney the next season.

    In other words, develop discrete skills that will show you off well at the expense of becoming a complete player.

    Thus the comparison with Barnes.

    I’m skeptical the DLeague develops players well—it doesn’t have the resources and environment the colleges have or once had. At any rate, its record in moving players up isn’t very good.

    Nor can it be expected that the NBA will act in its own and the players’ best interests. They will draft anyway and are competing with other teams to get prospects, yet at the same time can afford to let players go and absorb the expense.

    I can’t watch college basketball anymore. The one-and-done makes it hard to identify with a team and follow it with interest as it develops. And I find the games boring and confusing.

    • the burden of identifying viable talent is on the n.b.a. execs, as it should be. and it’s the teams that have trouble attracting or keeping their own free agents that have the smallest margin of error, in terms of the draft, teams like Cle or Mil or Min. if not for SA’s unique situation and management, they’d be in similar straits as the fourth smallest media market, but their singular focus on team play and success has made them attractive.

    • Adande sums the situation up nicely:

      “For years we were sold on the potential of this draft, and now that it’s over it’s still about potential. That’s what happens when teams place a greater premium on upside and combine measurables than basketball experience.

      “But as long as NBA teams are tripping over each other to take the least accomplished athletes, they’ll keep making the leap regardless of preparation level.”

  25. Felty: You’re contempt for the triangle offense and preference for the spread four has blinded you to the fact that the Knicks gave up two players, got four in return plus two second picks, and also purchased a
    another second round pick. While I agree with you on what system system is superior Jackson has win many NBA championships with that system. I’m lauding the players he received not the offensive system he employs.

    And by the way the Warriors purchased no draft picks yesterday.

    Frankly speaking I think you and Adam Lauridsen have lost a lot of credibility of your own making by opposing the proposed trade for Love. Luckily for you, I can never be proved right that the trade wii greatly enhance the Warriors if the trade never goes through.

    But, your now pointing out his teammates don’t like him is unseemly even if true given his excellence on the hardwood. It is the same argument put forward by the front office in rejecting a trade that would have brought us Lowry for Barnes.

    I just hope the Warriors were not influenced by you and Adam in rejecting the trade for Love. For such rejection will keep the Warriors from making a major improvement in the roster.

    And I should point that Thompson who you have a man crush on is not worthy of such praise given the few offensive rebounds, assists, steals and trips to the foul-line he has.

    • Frank, if you care to review lauridsen’s actual position on trading w. Min, you would see that he’d actually favor giving them lee and thompson, but he doesn’t want martin coming west. and he admits it’s by a slim margin that he’d object to a deal with martin in the package.

      and rest easy, what bloggers say about it will not influence the lacobites — if they green light a deal, it’s their infatuation with star marketing power overriding the doubts.

  26. “got four in return plus two second picks, and also purchased a
    another second round pick.”

    Your level of analysis is really that shallow? So you are telling me who actually got traded is meaningless?

    Let’s look at how RAPM views the trade:

    Chandler (+1.3) + Felton (+1.4) = +2.7
    Calderon (-3.0) + Dalembert (-0.1) + Larkin (-1.9) + Ellington (-0.7) = -5.7

    That’s a net -7 for New York. Awesome!

  27. The Love debate, in a nutshell:

    • the love-inebriated would point out that three points is better than two, and love will nearly always get a higher yield per shot attempt. those highlights didn’t show one iota of either individual or team defense from love, and gives credibility to how a player at his position can foul out only once in his career. he absolutely needed to foul griffin on some of those bull-drives.

  28. Bazemore is now an unrestricted free agent.

  29. EvanZ: do you really think that Felton is a better player than Calderon? Felton shot an effective FG percentages of 45 percent. Calderon 57 percent. Felton 12.9 PER, Calderon15.2 PEr.

    Chandler and Delambert virtually a wash on rebounds given that Dalembert played 1/3 less time. And Delambert is better on steals, blocks, and turnovers, when amount of time Delambert is on court is factored in. And although Chandler a slightly better shooter such is set off by Dalembert being a more proficient foul shooter. Dalembert PER 16.9, Chandler 16.5

    Not only did Jackson win just on those two players traded, but he got many other players and draft picks in the deal. Why someone would rate Larkin as you site when he hasn’t played in NBA is puzzling.

    • Calderon is an abominable defensive player.

    • Larkin played 500 minutes. Why would you like him if you think he’s never played? That makes just about as much sense. Actually less sense, since the majority of humans are not good at basketball. It’s more likely he’s not going to be anywhere near as good as Felton or Calderon.

      Anybody who keeps using PER as their only metric shouldn’t be talking about stats in the first place. For many reasons, the first of which, is that it says absolutely nothing about defense.

    • Very hard to compare Chandler and Dalembert last year, as SD was healthy, and TC wasn’t. When healthy, TC one of the best defenders and rebounders in the league. He’ll also be very effective in PNR with point-Monta.

  30. The basic point I was making is that Jackson did a great job remaking the Knicks. If anyone disagrees say so.

    Also think Philadelphia’s bold moves to take on two injured players and to select Saric who won’t play for them took some guts and such may well result in them leapfrogging teams in a few years.

    I do want to add that most perimeter defenders are just so so as three pointers are rarely contested and.virtually every guard and wing player can blow by their opponent. That’s why I’m more concerned about obtaining players who can provide weak side help and defend the rim.

    Be interested to see if Warriors improve their roster significantly this year should have blown up the team by getting rid of Bogut and Barnes.

    Even though improving our bench is important getting a guy like Frye seems weak.

    • “If anyone disagrees say so.”

      I already said so. He didn’t really do anything significant yet, unless driving away Melo counts. I suppose some might argue that’s a plus.

  31. A lot of Phil Jackson spin in this piece. I think underlying the insinuations about Chandler’s attitude is that Jackson knows Chandler is a poor fit for the triangle (no post game), and that he’d never get him to buy in to it.

    • what tickled me about the article wasn’t underlying or insinuated, but obvious. the current c.b.a. is getting pushed like an anvil over the first tier stars like james or anthony by two of the richest teams — the greater jackson says he wants anthony to back up his words about building a winner, i.e. accept less than market rate to show he’s a team player. the m.o. in Mia is similar with regard to james. ‘show your leadership by helping us make more $$ ‘.

      • You’re absolutely right Moto. The owners clearly earned themselves billions in that last negotiation. The players represented themselves horribly.

  32. Rumors are that the Warriors are seeking to trade their trade exemption for Jeremy Lin. I know the Warriors need a back-up point guard and may be there is no one on his par available, but it should be noted that Lin cost Houston 1 possession per game which distracts from his effective 51 percent shooting percentage.

    It’s reported they prefer Parsons if he is available. Who wouldn’t.

    • “but it should be noted that Lin cost Houston 1 possession per game ”

      What does this even mean?

  33. EvanZ: When one adds together Lin’s average number off offensive rebounds and steals per game and then subtract from said total bis average number of turnovers per game, the result is that his team averages one less possession per game with Lin on the court.

  34. EvanZ: You asked a question and i politely answered it. On this site we disagree without insulting each other. I did not use insulting words when you claimed the Knock’s Phil Jackson made a bad trade.

  35. Did anyone offer picks and/or veterans for Love?

    • I don’t think anyone knows for sure what has been offered.

      I hear that the TWolves are interested in Parsons. If that’s all Love can fetch, it’s pretty fishy.

  36. Last year Curry cost the Warriors a net average of 1.6 possessions per game, due to his large number of turnovers which were not offset by steals. Hopefully his large number of turnovers will decline with Kerr as coach.

    Lin would be a good back-up PG given his decent shooting, but more importantly his stellar defense, as he held opponents to 44 percent shooting last year.

    • How many points is the average NBA possession worth?

      We KNOW that an assist is worth at least 2 points. How many of Curry’s assists were worth 3?

      I know this is your pet statistic, Frank, but what does it really mean?

    • cosmicballoon

      Frank, I wish I could back you up on a revolutionary new stat. But until you’ve written an algorithm that can calculate every player in the league for comparison’s sake, I can’t take it seriously. For example, Robert Sacre on the LA Lakers had a Frank Quotient of 1, while Pau Gasol (Same position, same team) had an FQ of 0.2. Who is the better and more valuable player?

      Nicola Pecovic, TWolves center: An astounding 3.1 FQ! Ronnie Turiaf, TWolves center: 1.8 FQ! Kevin Love: 1.2 FQ.

      What exactly are we learning here? What conclusions can we make? I think you should stop using it in your arguments until you’ve fleshed it out and proven that it has some significance.

    • “News Flash: Point guard has turnovers!” Wow, I’ve never heard of such a thing. Thanks for alerting us to this troubling matter Frank.

    • Note he doesn’t say anything about Barnes’ $3m contract.

      I don’t know if they tried to trade him for a draft pick, but if they did, I’m guessing around 2oth would have been the best they could have done. If that had happened:

      1. It would have been incredibly embarrassing for the organization.

      2. It would not have been a good return on his supposed value.

      3. It would have been a good deal that helped the team.

      MT also sells Speights short. Speights could provide good value for his contract if he were played correctly, especially with a good pg and a few other competent players (i.e. not Barnes). He spent the whole season playing limited minutes with bad units, miscoached, but did well in the playoffs. He could fill in at 4 and center, where he might be a better scorer than Ezeli or Bogut. And I say give him a steady diet of outside shots and see what he can do.

  37. We might want to go after Jameer Nelson. A vet with tons of experience. Can handle the ball and shoot. RAPM has him at +1.2 which is impressive given his surroundings since Dwight left.

    Not sure how much he’ll fetch on the open market. Wouldn’t surprise me at all if he ends up running the point in Miami.

    • warriorsablaze

      Never really been a fan, but he’d actually be a good fit for a 3rd guard off the bench.

  38. When I make my own evaluation of players especially wings and centers before looking a field goal percentage, I first like to look at what is called here the “Frank quotient” ( OR’s plus steals minus turnovers) to see if a player gives his team extra or less possessions. It has more value for wings and bigs as most point guards rarely have many offensive rebound and therefore their stills and turnovers usually do not vary widely among PG’s. For wings and bigs they do. Some players average as two or more plus extra. net possessions per game, others as much as a minus 2 net extra possessions. D. Green is a player who provided a plus extra possessions for the Warriors as he did well hitting the offensive boards and making steals. so unlike to know that stat before I look at others. I would estimate each extra possession results in approximately 1 point. So two extra possessions may result in 2 extra points.

    I love players who have a high percentage, as such may more than offset another player who shoots a slightly higher percentage. That’s why I found it ludicrous that posters would knock Udoh for shooting only 43 percent from the field yet provide the Warriors with many extra possessions in limited playing time.

    I also like to look at a team’s roster and compare the teams plus/minus of different teams roster. I once did a cursory check of the Spurs roster and saw they had many players that provided their team with extra possessions as compared to the Warriors roster.

    • Frank,

      I find myself in the somewhat curious position of defending you, to a point. There is nothing inherently wrong with considering acquisition or retention of possessions as a factor in evaluating a player. Evanz jokingly mentioned Dave Berri, the author of the Wins Produced advanced metric, but he made his name on similar principles. Given that there are roughly 100 possessions and 100 points scored in a game, your one point per possession estimate does not sound egregiously wrong.

      In my opinion, your comments start to go wrong in two ways. First, you take a quick and dirty “quotient” and talk about it like it is the end-all, be-all. Second, some of your comments suggest you don’t look at the game. Example, your comments about Stephen Curry: looking at his turnovers against steals leaves out the fact that his high assist rate will drive some of those turnovers. Also he rebounds well for a point guard, most are defensive but they also contribute to his team’s possessions. Then you look at how he was mercilessly blitzed and otherwise double-teamed with few outlets because of poor schemes; few stats reflect that well. Does Stephen turn the ball over too much? Looking at how many turnovers were caused by simple swing passes that were thoughtless or lazy. Yes but, I bet more help on offense and fewer minutes would leave him sharper. Something not reflected well in stats.

      In any event and for what it is worth, I think you should keep posting what you believe. Frequently irritating and occasionally thought provoking is no worse than me or many others around here. Plus you and rgg get extra credit for usage rate.

  39. Don’t want Jameer Nelson. His opponents shoot 48 percent from field against him. His eff. Field goal percentage is 48 percent. Lin’s opponents shoot 44 percent from field. linn shoots 51 eff. shooting percentage. Looks like Lin better choice even though Lin does not get as many assists, gets to the foul line slightly less, and commits slightly more turnovers but Lin is slightly better stealer than Nelson.

  40. Luke Walton just hired. Triangle coach…

  41. They just signed Livingston to a 3-year deal. Twitter loves it. I just don’t see much value in a guy who took 6 3PA last season and just over 50 in his career.

    He shot 0.48 PPP on 58 spot-up attempts last season. He’s a worse shooter than Draymond.

    Maybe it’s just me, but I thought we needed more scoring off the bench, much less.

    • While I must admit I haven’t looked at the stats at all I like the signing on a couple of different levels:
      – in a blended lineup, you can move Stephen off the ball and cross-match defensively, I believe, with the taller Livingston.
      – if we get a Frye or Hawes, you can spread them and work Livingston inside. That might work with Speights too. Even more effective if Draymond can continue his shooting improvement or if another move nets a 2nd team shooter.
      – I like his intangibles. He strikes me as a smart player and, to come back from that terrible injury, you know he is tough.

      • We just blew our wad on Livingston (the full MLE). I think we’re done shopping.

        I would have much rather seen Frye or Gasol in a Dubs uni than Livingston.

        • If we look back on Livingston as the prime move of the offseason I agree with you. Let’s see what happens with the TPE and trades over the next couple of weeks.

        • warriorsablaze

          You know full well that this is likely not the end of our off-season moves.

          Looking at single moves in a vacuum seems like old-school fan thinking… can’t really make a judgement until we see what the roster is on Day 1 of the season.

          You’re right that he doesn’t bring scoring, but he does bring other needed aspects like ball handling to spell Steph (and move him off ball for stretches), defense, and even some post up offense to punish the other teams when they cross-match on Curry.

          I’m pretty neutral on the signing for now… just gotta wait to see what else does or does not happen over the next few months.

          • There’s no way for me to be neutral. A bad contract is a bad contract.

          • warriorsablaze

            True, but the reality is that you can’t say it’s a bad contract until you see how he performs and what other moves are made.

            Of course, you can say it’s a bad contract in foresight if you want, but we here in Feltbot-land know how much system, teammates, etc… matter in a player’s performance. He may not fill the specific need you identified (scoring), but he fills other needs quite nicely. Have to see how it all fits when the puzzle is complete.

          • I don’t really see those other ‘needs’ everyone is talking about. We have 3 guys on this team that can score, and we go and add a guard who can’t shoot a ball into the ocean. I don’t see how that fits any kind of need.

          • warriorsablaze

            You don’t see any need for a secondary ball handler? A guard who can defend both positions? The league leader in PPP for Post ups? A decent distributor? A back up PG? He fills lots of needs.

            Let’s see who else fills out the bench… then we’ll know if there was a better plan to follow.

          • “The league leader in PPP for Post ups?”

            This is a highly dubious stat. Sure, in 96 FGA he was the league leader. The year before with half as many attempts he ranked #80. So a little over 1 post up per game…that’s why we signed him? Gee, let me go call Mark Jackson and hire him as an assistant coach. We got a real live postup threat here.

            As for everything else, this team certainly has “needs”. I don’t think Livingston fits many of them. Mainly, even if he can handle the ball and play average defense, the one thing he really can’t do (shoot the ball) is the most important thing he needs to be able to do.

            This team has 3 guys who can score the ball. Last year we had 5 now that Crawford and JON are gone. We’re trying to get better on offense, and we go out and sign this guy? Sorry, just not getting it.

  42. FeltbotsFakeGirlfriend

    Warriors just agreed to terms with Shaun Livingston for 3 years and $16 million.

  43. Warriors a joke. Why would you sign a player when PG opponents shoot 49.6 percent against him and an even higher percentage when he’s the SG? and when he rarely shoots and doesn’t shoot three’s, doesn’t make many assists nor get to the foul-line much. He basically shot 48 percent on 2’s. He’s no Jared Jack. But he does look like a ball player. He’s ok on steals and doesn’t commit many turnovers. Did the Warriors use their mid-level exemption on him?

    I guess we’ll next be discussing Spencer Hawes. Wish we were discussing Parsons and Ryan Anderson.

    Warriors roster moving backwards and Warriors lower in standings. Stay tuned. Looks like Warriors in a panic mode.

    • “Did the Warriors use their mid-level exemption on him?”

      Yes, the entire thing on day 1 of free agency. There ain’t no other player walking through that door.

  44. To quote Mark Jackson, Oh God.

  45. Youtired: Curry is a great player. One just has to watch him to see that he often takes over games that often results in wins. His turnovers are negated by all the other positive things he does that you point out out (rebounds, assists) in your post as well as shooting exceeding well. All I’m saying is that I would like to see him cut down on turnovers.Who doesn’t?

    I do not look at extra or less possessions by a player as as end all in evaluating a player.For me, it’s a beginning point. It’s the only stay one has to do some calculations first. The others are right there to view. I just emphasize possessions by a player for no one else does as a factor in evaluating a player.

    And although not fond of Livingston I would point out that he is a plus – on additional possessions as his steals are decent and his turnovers low.

  46. Livingston’s an enigma. Watching him play he seems a decent player offensively as he easily gets into the paint. Given his Height, wing span, and relative quickness I’m just befuddled why opponent’s scored so easily against him. Maybe in a new setting he’ll perform better defensively. Also, expect his FG shooting percentage to exceed 50 percent if the Warriors run. Hopefully he’ll shoot more often that just once every four and a third minutes as he did for the Nets.

    Jodie Meeks was terrific virtually every time I saw him

  47. Maybe due to Livingston’s injuries he lacks quickness.

  48. I’m out of town for some time, and not in the mood (yet) to peck out an entire post with one finger on my ipad. So in a nutshell:

    One of the worst signings in the history of the Warriors franchise.

    • It’s way up there. Some of those other teams can be forgiven even, because they weren’t playing for anything.

      Lacob has now all but fixed the ceiling of this team in granite.

    • cosmicballoon

      Which is worse, the Bogut extension or the Livingston contract?

  49. Looking forward to why Felty thinks Livingston’s a bad signing. Hope we’re not going to hear he won’t play well in triangle or spread four. I’m not concerned with his lack of three point shooting, as his shooting two’s last year was ok (48 percent) and the year before he shot 51 percent from the floor.

    My concern is his defense. And although opponents scored easily against him I’ve read reports that the Net’s defense performed quite well when Livingston was on the court. And although when he played for Cleveland opponent PG’s shot well against him, the year before when he played for Milwaukee playing 20 minutes per game. opposing PG’s only shot 41 percent an indication he my not have been used properly the last two years and was asked to double down to much thus leaving his opponent opening.

    I’ll remain optimistic that under Kerr he will be used properly. And if he can hold opposing PG’s to 41 percent, we have found a gem. A player who can take points off the opponent’s core is well worth having. Glad Warriors getting bigger in backcourt. Think Livingston may play quite well playing 20 minutes per game.

    Still hope the Warriors obtain Love.

    • “My concern is his defense. ”

      Your model needs some work.

    • Frank, since you looked up livingston’s shooting pct.’s, go ahead and take it just a bit further. he does not shoot well (at all) beyond 10 ft. in today’s game (stretch the floor), he fails to meet the basic requirement of a perimeter player — ability to both defend and score from the perimeter.

  50. Maui Nellie

    Zach Lowe on SL signing: “This deal is a risk, but a worthy one”

  51. How is a backup point guard going to stretch the floor if he can’t shoot deep himself? Who is he going to set up among the subs? I sure as hell hope they didn’t get Livingston to set up Barnes. And how long will he be able to stay on the court if his unit can’t score? If he can’t stay on the floor, what difference does his defense make? What he means is that Klay and Curry will have to spend more time on the floor, but even then they will be less effective.

    Does anybody see history repeating itself? A pattern?

    Whose idea was Livingston? What did Kerr or Gentry have to say?

    The history of backup point guards under Lacob:

    1. Lin
    20% on 3s in his brief play, but still career is 34%

    2. Jenkins
    18% on 3s
    The year of the tank would have been a good time to develop a backup. Actually, Jenkins did put up some good numbers.

    3. Jack
    Is the exception, and he worked out well. Career 36% but 40% with the Warriors that year. He should have provided the example that showed what they have needed all along.

    4. Douglas
    32% with the Warriors, 35% career.
    Maybe a more promising prospect, but his injury, the way MJax played him, and his quick release doesn’t give much to work with. He just didn’t have a good PG head, however.

    5. Crawford
    31% with Warriors, 30% career
    Some of that at 2. I’m still skeptical he was complete enough to play point.

    6. Bazemore
    Who should never have been played at point. 27% on 3s with the Warriors, 37% with the wide open play with the Lakers

    7. Nedovic
    Who wasn’t good enough to put on the court last season, but 17%.
    But he supposedly fit the model they were looking for: an athletic PG who can penetrate and kick out. The European Derrick Rose—you have to believe this was part of the attraction

    8. Blake
    34% with the Warriors, a more respectable 39% career, who at least had experience, but of a very limited kind.

    9. Livingston
    Not worth computing because he almost never takes a 3, but 20% career. At least he has experience.

    That makes nine attempts in four going on five seasons, without any success, assuming Livingston doesn’t work out, or work out well, except, again, Jack, a one-year rental, still a compromise. There’s more to consider than three point shooting and the differences between the rest are subtle but not significant, but their ability to shoot is a common factor. I suppose it might be argued that they never gave some a chance to develop. Lin might have turned into an OK backup, though didn’t show enough in his brief play with the Warriors. Still, he could have been kept on for little. But they didn’t make the right pick in the first place.

    The Warriors have not expended even minor resources, except when pushed, in finding a suitable backup point or made good selections, and the selections they’ve made reflect a faulty plan for the offense and the team’s talent. They’ve paid the price all these years and will continue to pay the price, not just the next three years, but after, because they still won’t have anyone else coming along.

    • cosmicballoon

      While that is a pathetic list, you briefly mentioned the offense as being a culprit. You left out the common denominator, Mark Jackson. His use of the bench was absolutely pathetic, and I level the collective failure of these guards on him. If we look at the backup forwards, I’m sure it is a similar picture. Jack worked because he fit best in the crappy iso system that Jackson ran that year.

      If Kerr and his new staff have any semblence of a cohesive offense, the second unit will not struggle the way it has the past 4 seasons. Example: San Antonio.

      • What all those players have in common, excluding Nate and Jack, is that they are not good shooters, at GSW or elsewhere. And they were limited in other ways. The coaching was bad, but did not make that much difference. The problem was in their selection and the type of players GSW wanted, or thought they wanted.

        San Antonio again is the good comparison. They brought in a bright but small player, Patty Mills, who could run an offense yet had limited kick and penetrate abilities. And he could shoot, and his shot was improved, and he was encouraged to shoot, with good effect. He’s the kind of player GSW would never have looked at in the first place.

      • CB, San Antonio doesn’t let non-shooters onto their roster, let alone on the floor.

        • cosmicballoon

          RGG: I disagree about Douglas, Blake and Jenkins. The bad shooters on this list are Lin, Bazemore, Ned and apparently Livingston. Crawford is just kind of a poor decision maker. Average shooter.

          Felt, to your point, Cory Joseph, Tony Parker, Ginobli and Leonard are not great shooters percentage-wise. Within the Spurs offense open shots are taken and get made. We saw it every time the Spurs played the Wariors. Tony Parker certainly took most of his threes from the corner.

          To the Spurs offense: Matt Bonner would never see an open look if he was playing on the Warriors. However, as a Spur, he shoots .429 this season. Bellinelli, who had shot over 40% only once in his career from three, hit 43% this season. This is the Spurs offense getting players open shots. I’m about 80 percent sure that Steph Curry could shoot 55% from three playing as a Spur.

          • Douglas had an OK shot, but not consistent. More importantly, he had limited court sense. Blake was only good with set offenses and big scorers to feed. He wasn’t good at penetrating or running. Jenkins I admired and he had a good midrange shot. If he ever could have developed, we’ll never know because he was let go and it doesn’t look like he’ll be seen again. What all those on the list (except maybe Nate and Jack) had in common is that they weren’t serious prospects at backup point and were poor investments and indicate a continual shortcoming of the organization to find and develop players at key positions.

            Odds are good we don’t hear about Patty Mills again if he hadn’t gone to the Spurs. But you’re making the point yourself. If you have adequate shooters down the roster, you make all of them better, as has happened with the Spurs.

            This is not what has happened with the Warriors. They have limited scorers/shooters both with the starters and the bench. Livingston doesn’t change that. What this means is that it will be harder for the scorers they have, mostly Klay and Curry, to find their shots.

          • And what could Shaun Livingston shoot from three on the Spurs, CB?

            It’s a trick question. The answer is 0%. Because Pop would never let him on the team.

        • Livingston should be playing for Orlando. Apparently they are also on a mission to purge all 3-pt shooters from their roster.

  52. I can’t wait to hear who in the Warriors Byzantine front office is going to get the credit for championing Livingston.

  53. He’ll stretch the court by getting into the paint and scoring. Defenses will have to deal with that. Guys will be left open. If he shoots he scores fine.

    What you don’t discuss and what is the most important to a team’s success offensively is to get open shots for shooters, not contested shots. Pop knows that and he designs plays that call for each primary shooter to have an outlet if his shot is contested on a drive, post-up or taking shots. That’s what’s important. You can achieve that in a variety of ways. by stretching the floor, isolating two players on one side and having a cutter, or by playing with the center open. Suggest you watch Spurs-Heat series. Miami took contested shots at rim, low post and on perimeter. The Spurs rarely did.

  54. I really didn’t want us to focus on a point guard, but if we had to, Jameer Nelson may go for next to nothing. My guess is he’s in Miami or San Antonio next season. Winning something.

  55. Livingston can penetrate and kick out to whom? If with the subs, that leaves Barnes, who can only shoot when dead open or drive when he has a lane, who holds on to the ball longer than anyone in the NBA before making a decision, giving defenses time to close in. And if there isn’t a good perimeter threat, it will be easier for the defense to close the lane. The only solution is to play Curry and Klay more minutes. And if Livingston plays with the starters, who sits—Klay?—and who else on the offense can score reliably, especially from the outside? It will still be easy to cover Curry. Do they close out games with three guards, Curry, Klay, and Livingston? Who else would be on the floor and how would that work? Jack may have been a compromise, but it did work with him because he could shoot.

    The Warriors do not have enough offense—good shooters—at 1,2, and 3. This has not changed at all in years.

    The European Derrick Rose (Nedovic)—this is a bunch of crap (and you can’t help wondering if that didn’t influence Lacob & Son). But that seems to be the model they’re looking for. You have to be a damn good penetrator to make it work, not just so-so or pretty good. An 88 mph fast ball is worthless. Livingston has to be able to show a shot himself to be effective in penetrating. It’s the reason Dallas is going to coach Ellis on his shot, which has been somewhat effective. And it’s a set up for injury—look at Rose and Lin. And you still have to have to players behind you to make it work.

  56. OaktownDad

    Here is my response to teh assertion that there is no such thing as the Curry-Bogut pick and roll: Bogut dunking on your face out of the pick and roll.

    • 1. How many times has this been attempted the last two season?

      2. Why hasn’t it been attempted more?

      3. JaVale McGee.

      • This is like…let me pull out the video from last summer of Barnes driving and dunking on Ryan Anderson. “See what he can do?!”

    • See JVG’s opinion of the San Antonio series that followed, available in my archives.

  57. Rgg: Your point calls out for Barnes being packaged for a SG. Have little doubt the Warriors will pick up a good outside shooter. Livingston can get the ball to D. Green for a three. And if the Warriors sign Hawes hat gives then another three point shooter. Be patient till the roster is completed.

  58. There are a bunch of great armchair GMs on this site chiming in on the Livingston signing. Obviously any dufus can orchestrate a 50 win season in the NBA if Lacob, Myers, and Jackson did it! I bet certain people would even have criticism if we signed LeBron. (He’s not a great shooter either.)
    Bottom line for me, its not my $, and I definetly prefer Livingston over Blake or Crawford. He wouldn’t have been my first choice to fill the back-up PG position, but that’s a mute point now. He can’t shoot the 3, but he’ll be our teams 2nd best ballhandler right off the bat, can team with either Steph or Klay to get them open looks, and he’s a legitimate, versatile (somewhat rare) NBA PG to boot. Jordan Crawford needed to go. Blake was tough but too limited. So the team is improved..
    Sure it was pricy, even risky health-wise, but often times assembling a real team is a little bit harder than assembling a fantasy league team. The players want to have to play here, too.

    An Anthony Morrow-Steve Novak type (or 2) on the end of the bench would be nice. More productive than Nedo or Kuzmic.

    • “He wouldn’t have been my first choice to fill the back-up PG position, but that’s a mute point now.”

      How can you say it’s a mute point when we’re all talking about it?

      • Because he is now our de-facto backup PG, and I’m just trying to view the glass half full.

    • We’re all armchair GMs. Isn’t that the point?

    • I’m against signing guys like Bogut and Livingston with previous serious injuries which reduce their game to multi-year contracts. Why not get healthy, fully capable guys? Lacob is taking way too much risk with these guys.

      • cosmicballoon

        +1 Marc. This is what happens when you blow a draft (Ned and Kuz) and then don’t have any draft picks the following year.

        Bogut, in particular, had little to no upside.

        • In fairness, last year’s draft was one of the worst of the past two decades. There are few players of note other than Giannis and Dieng in the entire draft, let alone where the Warriors were picking.

          We’re basically talking about Nate Wolters the only guy below Nedovic who got playing time. And last I checked he was a terrible shooter as well.

  59. The points about Livingston not being able to shoot and many of the consequences of that are spot on, but I believe he can still be a useful player if used correctly. Felt, since you often channel Don Nelson, do you think he would concentrate on what Livingston can’t do, or would he find a way to take advantage of the things a 6’7″ ball handler can bring to the table and find a way to use him effectively?

    Here’s how I think he can be a big help:

    1) Avoid playing him with Bogut. Shouldn’t be a big deal unless Steph gets hurt. Bogut won’t get more than 30 min a night. Your backup PG won’t get more than 20-25. Just stagger them.

    2) Don’t play with Ezeli either, play him in small ball units where he is surrounded by 3 point threats and can aggressively trap and switch on defense. He was effective last year primarily in units with Paul Pierce at the 4. I’m sure he’ll play with Curry from time to time so Curry can run off of screens, but if we want Curry to be healthy for the playoffs, he has to rest, and that should mean most of Livingston’s minutes come with Curry on the bench. Let’s make most of those minutes a unit with Livingston, Klay, Iguodala, Green, and Lee. Then turn up the pressure and get in the passing lanes. Everyone is at least 6’6″ with a wingspan even bigger than that. Especially if matched up against other teams’ second units this lineup could generate a ton of steals and blocks, leading to transition opportunities.

    3) Take advantage of those transition opportunities – we have to get out and run with a unit like this. Everyone can run the floor, handle enough to push the ball themselves and shoot enough to be dangerous on open transition looks. This helps not just Livingston but also Iguodala and Green, or even Barnes to be effective offensive players despite shortcomings in shooting and shot creation in the half court. But in particular it plays to Livingston’s strengths – he sees the floor well, is good at passing ahead and he seems to be a good finisher on the break. When the defense isn’t set his lack of an outside shot isn’t a big handicap – jump shots are less contested and driving lanes are more plentiful. Pushing the ball should also result in unintended cross matches where he can either post up a smaller guard or drive past a big. He’s smart enough to take advantage of these, and pass out of double teams when they come as a result.

    I honestly believe that is a recipe for an effective offense and disruptive defense with Curry resting, and that’s something we didn’t see last year.

    • +1 We might see some of this when the injuries kick in, but I’d be worried about Lacob’s clear predilection for having a center on the court and playing big at all times. Can Livingston play effectively with non-shooting centers and conventional fours?

      • “Can Livingston play effectively with non-shooting centers and conventional fours?.”

        That’s not going to get the most out of him for sure, but maybe he’s playable with a very specific set of players and tactics. Basically it might work with him and the starting unit in place of Iguodala. If both Curry and Klay are on the floor and drawing attention by running off of screens.

        Livingston would be much better at backing down Tony Parker than Harrison Barnes ever was. You’d hope that he could force a shorter and worse defender onto Curry/Klay at times, and if the other coach isn’t having it then he should at least be able to take the 3rd best perimeter defender off the dribble when potential help defenders are occupied with screening action. And he should be able to make the right pass on a back door or slipped screen to take advantage of overplays. None of that stuff is what you want to build an offense around, but hopefully it means the offense wouldn’t fall apart with him on the court. But most of that goes for Iggy too and swapping Iggy out for Livingston is definitely much worse on defense.

        I definitely don’t want to ever see him with a big bench unit without the 2 great shooters on the floor, so I won’t even break down that scenario.

    • “Don’t play with Ezeli either, play him in small ball units where he is surrounded by 3 point threats and can aggressively trap and switch on defense. ”

      I could see a Curry/Livingston/Klay/Dray/Lee lineup being useful 10-15 mpg.

      The key this season will be to rest Iggy and Bogut as much as possible, to maximize their chances of actually being healthy for a post-season run.

      • I think that lineup would be very effective too. Probably even more so than the one I proposed because Curry makes such a difference. Any lineup with him in it, including the starting lineup with both Bogut and Iguodala in it will be effective on offense.

        But I’m looking for a scenario where Curry gets to rest and our offense doesn’t simultaneously fall apart. I think a trapping small ball unit could be it.

  60. We should not forget that Livingston was a starter for the NETs, a team that made it to the playoffs. And I believe he shot two pointers at least as well as Thompson did last year. He now will be a back-up PG.

    In one post above I indicated that a plus 1 possession per game net average equals approximately 1 point per game. Actually it equals 2 points as the opposition loses a possession they otherwise would have had.

    That’s why a player giving his team extra possessions per game and not minus possessions is so important. And that part of the reason D. Green was a force in the playoffs, as not only did he shoot the lights out but he gave, I believe, the Warriors 2 or 3 extra possessions per game that our opponents would have had. The warriors should be greatly improved this year by the mere fact that Green will be on the court for minutes that Barnes was last year. At least we all hope so.

    Curry being a minus 1.6 in possessions really diminishes his high shooting percentage and if he can reduce his turnovers his contribution will be off the charts and the Warriors will be so much stronger.

  61. believewhat

    felt and others,

    Livingston in his words about his lack of 3PT shot from this article.

    “That’s the thing. Guards want to go under, teams want to go under me because my perimeter or lack of shooting, but what they don’t realize is that once they go under, I’m so low, now I’m at my spot. It’s either make or miss, and if you help, now we have the kick-out for the shooters. You’ve got shooter, shooter, shooter. And they’ve all hit shots. So again, that’s the system that’s in place that allows me to thrive. Maybe if there weren’t shooters there, the lane would be clogged, and maybe it’d be a hard time finishing.”

    • Thanks for this. Lays out the effect of his limitations well. Last year the Nets had Paul Pierce and Teletovich at four, and a scoring center on the floor at all times (Garnett, Blatche, Plumlee).

      Contrast the Lacob Warriors. “Shooter, shooter, shooter?”

      • We have the personnel to do the same thing – not that I need to tell you that. But this will be an interesting test. Lacob supposedly likes analytics and Kerr wants to emulate the Spurs. Those 2 things theoretically should lead them to some reserve units with Lee at center and Barnes/Green at 4. Fingers crossed but not holding my breath.

    • Awesome article. Cool to hear him explain his thought process. Definitely a smart player.

    • Great piece, bw, and I respect the guy now.

  62. Kings sign Darren Collison for $16m 3 years.

    Would much rather have had him.

    • believewhat


      Livingston can switch on D to bigger guards and even SF. He also (from what I have seen), gets close to the hoop for a mid range jumper easily and have height to shoot over his defender and shoot at high %age. Also, he will be coming off bench, so very little to never that he will play with Bogut. In a line up of Curry or Klay with him, Green, Barnes and Speights or Lee he will excel. Collison is good but he can’t play next to Curry as say Collison was able to play next to Paul. Livingston is better fit, IMO. We will see, we will have two years to ponder.

  63. My latest line of thought is that Myers needs to kick Nedovic and Kuzmic to the curb and sign some players to vet min:

    Rush, Udoh, and Ayon may all sign for vet min, and each could be useful in spots. Certainly more than Nedovic or Kuzmic.

    Hell, Rush is only a couple years removed from being a huge value. Why not take a chance?

    If it’s not these guys, I’m all ears. But we need to gamble a little here.

    • Why do they need to boot Nedovic or Kuzmic to do that? Seems like they should have a few open roster spots unless some of Crawford/Blake/O’Neal somehow come back.

      • Oh, duh. That is probably true. Even better.

      • NN and kuzmic have guaranteed deals from being draft picks ; if they’re waived as opposed to traded (which would mean other contracts coming in anyway) their contracts would still count on the cap. crawford’s roster spot was absorbed by livingston, probably leaving the three roster places formerly filled by blake, o’neal, and armstrong.

  64. In case anyone was wondering about the latest ass’t coach hire:

    This looks to be one mellow staff.

  65. If the Warriors can obtain Love and Martin without giving up Thompson, the backcourt will be solid and the Warriors will likely reach the Western conference finals. Even with the Warriors including Thompson in the dal, the Warriors would be much stronger then presently constituted with the addition of Love and Marin.

  66. FeltbotsFakeGirlfriend

    Clippers just signed Spencer Hawes to mid level exception 4 years $23 million. I think I would have rather had Hawes over Livingston.

  67. According to this, the Warriors are still hopeful the TWolves will take Barnes in Klay’s place (a pipe dream), and have reached out to Kent Bazemore.

    They’re still $6m under cap after signing SL.

    • If Bosh and Melo would sign with Houston and Chicago, the Warriors obviously would have more leverage. But I can’t imagine Barnes and Lee ever being enough.

      Hey, the silver lining in all this is that the Warriors are finally willing to trade Barnes!

      • At the exact moment that no one wants him…

        Note also that no one is clamoring for the Warriors other “assets”, Nedo and Kuzmic.

        • I recall Myers saying the Warriors were accumulating young assets.

          • myers’ politically very correct, generic (any player/contract on the roster is considered an asset until proven otherwise) remark is significant for what it omits — the roster has been built to please the owner, with marketing and contract budgeting (conflicting priorities in the chase for ‘name’ players) primary concerns. the coaching staff are like the bottom ranked commissioned officers and non-coms — they get to make tactical decisions and implementations while excluded from the strategy planning.

  68. Just to make clear: my opinion of the SL signing will change considerably if the Warriors succeed in acquiring Love and retaining Thompson, because my opinion is predicated upon the Warriors’ upcoming difficulties in spreading the floor.

    • Of course, but that seems highly unlikely. In the meantime, we failed to get anything for Barnes. Failed to find anyone better than Ezeli to backup Bogut when he inevitably goes down. And still have failed to find anyone that can score off the bench.

      If the FO has some grand master plan behind all this that I’m not seeing, they sure as hell put on a good poker face.

    • Nobody does a cover their ass post like you felt…

      …one question sir. If the Kings had signed Livingston & the Warriors Collison, would you be saying you prefered Livingston?

      …that’s OK, you don’t need to answer that!

      • I give reasons for my opinions. If those reasons no longer apply, I change my opinions.

        And I try not to write over the heads of my readers, but apparently, that can’t always be avoided.

        • “I give reasons for my opinions. If those reasons no longer apply, I change my opinions.”

          Didn’t John Maynard Keynes say that, or something similar?

        • Every thing you said in your “Cover your ass post” was true back on the 2nd, when you said “One of the worst signings in the history of the Warriors franchise”.

          Nothing has changed …many will buy into your CYA excuse…but doubt you have to worry about writing over readers heads tho :>

          • The stakes are much higher now than ever before. That means marginal moves like this must be scrutinized even more. In that context, I think it is arguably one of the worst moves they’ve ever made, simply because they don’t have room for error in the West.

            Everything has to go to perfect just to have a shot at contending for this team.

          • Scotch, EvanZ is exactly right, the context of what I meant by “worst signing” is that as the Warriors team currently stands, this signing cost them their chance of contending in the West. (This was made explicit on my twitter feed.) I stand by that analysis. Few if any other horrible signings in franchise history (and there are many to choose from) were for such high stakes, or had that terrible consequence.

            And you are dead wrong that the assumptions behind that comment were the same as those in the above post. I handicap the chances of the Warriors having both Love and Klay on the roster to start the season at close to zero.

            Sorry that this is over your head.

  69. I sure hope when Meyers told Draymond to work on his 3 point shot this summer, he also had the same conversation with the great Mokur.

  70. I hadn’t realized McRoberts had improved so much as a 3pt shooter. Shot 36% on 4.4 3pa per 36 minutes. It would have made more sense to give him the MLE than Livingston.

    • Now I’m reading that Portland is interested in him. Massive fail by GSW if McRoberts ends up signing for the MLE in Portland.

      McRobert’s 1.05 PPP on PNR was actually higher than Lee. And his 0.99 PPP on spot-up shooting is much more efficient than almost all post-up players (except Shaun Livingston!).

      Instead of bringing a guy like McRoberts off the bench, Warriors will be bringing Ezeli.

    • Ws also showing no interest in Marvin Williams, who has turned himself into a pretty good 2way stretch 4, and is currently being pursued by Heat among others.

      Guessing they feel they have enough there with DGreen. Possibly Barnes as well.

      • warriorsablaze

        Question is… are they wrong?

        Both Dray and HB have had success at the 4 (for HB, certainly more success than at the 3). What do some of these players — Ryan Anderson, Williams, McRoberts, Frye, etc… — bring to the table that Green doesn’t already provide? He’s a better ball-handler, defender, distributer, and rebounder than all of them. All Green has to do is bump his 3pt% up by a few points and he’ll be a far better option than all these second tier (non-Kevin Love) stretch 4’s on the market.

        • “All Green has to do is bump his 3pt% up by a few points and he’ll be a far better option than all these second tier (non-Kevin Love) stretch 4′s on the market.”

          I don’t think anybody here is knocking Green. To me he’s the first big off the bench.

          The huge elephant in the room here is that right now, as this team stands, Ezeli is the backup center. That’s not a good situation. I’d much rather have McRoberts as a backup 4/5 to mix in with Draymond. Draymond can play multiple positions defensively. That’s how you put together a versatile team.

          Ezeli plays one position. And not every well.

          • warriorsablaze

            I agree we could use another big… but “as the team stands”, Lee and Speights can both get run as back up 5’s. Of course, that assumes Kerr intends to run the team based on its strengths as opposed to the hammer square pegs into round holes MJax approach. Could certainly be a flawed assumption.

            Maybe Kuz is ready for some PT this season? :)

          • I was a big fan of Ezeli’s before he got injured. Great, tough defender and rebounder. Runs floor great as well.

            I would definitely prefer my second unit center to be a skilled PF though.

          • warriorsablaze

            I think Ezeli is fine to fill in for Bogut during his inevitable injured periods… and we have Green, Barnes, and Speights who can all take a run at 4 when Lee is either on the bench or running at 5 in a small unit.

            I’m more concerned (and I think you and Felt share this concern) about getting some more shooting at the 2 and 3 for the bench. A Morrow or Reggie type would be great playing alongside SL.

  71. Mark Spears reports 9 teams interested in Bazemore, including the Warriors. He reports Bazemore met with San Antonio already. Doesn’t SA already have sufficient number of wings?

    Ric Bucher reports the Warriors turned down Affalo and a future no.1 for Barnes. This is hard to believe.

    • “Ric Bucher reports the Warriors turned down Affalo and a future no.1 for Barnes. This is hard to believe.”

      It’s harder to believe Bucher is correct about a rumor or that we didn’t want to trade Barnes (again)? I find it very easy to believe one of those things.

    • if bucher’s rumour was planted through a source in the lacobite termite mound, it could serve nicely as a smoke signal — bids on barnes are welcome but they have to be better than this before we’ll consider it.

      • ” bids on barnes are welcome but they have to be better than this before we’ll consider it.”

        Better than Afflalo and first round pick from Orlando? Are you high?

        • +1 – Evanz

          Affalo would be a great upgrade. Plus the Dubs would likely get a nice draft asset.

          Me fears Affalo contract would bind the Warriors lest they go over the much feared salary cap…

          From a hoops standpoint though…would be a fun move.

          • I mean, the great part about that would be Afflalo is an expiring contract. So you get an expiring contract and a first round pick from a bad team. SMH if they really passed that up.

  72. That the Warriors didn’t want to trade Barnes.

  73. McRoberts apparently signed for the MLE with the Heat. Another guy I’d rather have had.

  74. Clips sign Jordan Farmar at bu pg, for 2 yrs $4.2m. Good three point shooter, he was on his way to a fine season last year before being derailed by injury. A much more complete player as well since going overseas.

    There were many, many ways for the Warriors to put together their roster puzzle this season, and so far I don’t like the way it’s going.

  75. RayRottosStretchPants

    Mark Jackson sighting. I expect this is how he learned to be so damn repetitive during his huddles.

    • Interesting to see a rich man preaching that you can’t serve two masters.

      It always astonishes me how poorly most Christian preachers understand the New Testament. Or how unwilling they are to take Jesus’ words at face value.

      • Matthew Chapter 19, Verse 24…
        And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
        – Awkward…

        Or was this demonstration a thinly veiled reference to Kirk Lacob?

        • cosmicballoon

          Hey Jake, I don’t intend to get into a debate about Christianity or Mark Jackson’s Christian beliefs. We exhausted the topic on this blog months ago. I will just point out that Steph Curry is a devout Christian, as are Russell Wilson and Peyton Manning. All are rich, and likely will be richer than Jackson. Riches and heaven are between God and the rich man. Jackson is a unique case because he tried to blend coaching and some proselytizing, but who are we to say that because he’s rich heaven is in question.

    • Perhaps auditioning for that faker HC gig?

    • Looks like MJ is still working isos.

    • warriorsablaze


  76. Jackson went-off on other religions and sin. Doesn’t seem in spirit very Christian. Seems very narrow minded and very judgmental. Wonder how he deals with God wanting him fired which surely he believes.

    His beliefs seem as wacky as US Supreme Court decision that basically found that a man’s belief that God wants private corporations to deny women contraceptives is protected by U.S Constitution.

  77. JesusTheOneFromMiami

    Proselytizing from the street corner is quite common for evangelistic reverends especially in large cities. Mr. Jackson is likely trying to attract more members to his SoCal flock. Practically speaking, it looks like the former coach is transitioning from coaching to His Los Angeles Church for the near and midterm future. Guessing he made the decision, or his agent told him there will be no coaching jobs available until after the 2014-15 season.

  78. J-RIDAH from GSOM says Warriors are targeting Tolliver if they can’t get Pau with the TPE by Thursday. Tolliver would be a great addition if we can get him on a vet min.

    • Now, wouldn’t that be ironic?

      Full circle.

    • warriorsablaze

      If we could pull Reggie back from the Philippines or wherever he is, that would be pretty cool. There’s your scoring off the bench.

    • Yes, very inspirational. But $16M? Seems like Lacob could have signed him for less than that. He’s a huge risk at that price, one would think.

  79. Hi guys, scanned through the recent comments and have a few observations.

    Sean Livingston isn’t a shooter, but he’s a winner. If Kerr can’t figure out how to integrate Livingston’s game into the team’s, Sean will figure it out, a la Draymond. If Livingston leads the 2nd team, it’s going to be improved. Wait and see.

    I don’t have an opinion on Mark Jackson’s faith, but I do know a few things about rich corporate types. If anyone was considering Jackson for a coaching gig, that video ended it. Mark Jackson won’t be serving two masters next season.

    Frank, this one’s for you: The whole point to having the fictional legal entities called corporations is to isolate business owners and managers from liability. But that separation works both ways. A corporation can’t have religious beliefs, and can’t act on a faith it does not have. The Hobby Lobby SCOTUS decision will not stand for long.

  80. As we trudge through this boring offseason, can you fucking imagine this offseason happening now?? I forgot how insane this was..what a great piece he wrote on this…twitter would blow up-–the-wackiest-one-by-miles-201944082.html

  81. Maui Nellie

    Steve Kerr and Kirk Lacob talk Warriors and Summer League.

    • Funny he didn’t mention Craft, easily the most recognizable name on the team.

      • cosmicballoon

        I wonder if Travis Brader could turn into a Kyle Korver or Anthony Morrow-type player.

        Craft is definitely the most well-known name on this roster. He was a good defender and leader, but he was a 30 percent three point shooter his last two years at Ohio State and he barely averaged 10 ppg. It will be interesting to see if he can make the jump to the NBA.

    • Bob Myers better watch his back.

      The rapid fire Lacob ‘speak’ reveals a self awareness of his vast knowledge of the required skills to play NBA basketball. It is quite apparent Kirk Lacob is using his experience in piloting the D-League Warriors and his intramural accomplishments at Stanford to eventually take the GM position for Golden State.

      Simply Awesome.

  82. Hat: Think the Hobby Lobby US Supreme Court decision will stand a long time. Congress to dysfunctional to change it. Decision held that closely held corporation may reflect it’s owners religious beliefs against the use of contraceptives by employees. Absurd.

    If the Warriors don’t obtain Love this off-season it will be a disaster.

    • Frank, the SCOTUS decision on Hobby Lobby puts US courts into an untenable position. To grant religious exemptions to laws, courts nationwide would first have to determine the validity and social acceptability of a claimed religious belief before granting an exemption. Even attempting to make that judgement is an unconstitutional role for a US court.

      It’s going to be fun to watch the wingnuts on the Roberts court trying to defend this decision of theirs over the next couple of years. They have issued some stinkers, but this one is a WTF.

      Re the Ws acquiring Love, both sides have some critical problems with the only rational deal. That sort of thing usually means it’s a nogo. Which might not be so bad. We’ll have a healthy Iggy next year, and a lot less drama in the coaching staff. That’s 10 more wins right there.

  83. Warriors laying the groundwork to move Barnes back into the starting lineup?

    Wouldn’t surprise me to see Barnes heavily showcased early in the season, trying to sucker the TWolves.

  84. There’s a lot of uncertainty regarding how good the Warriors will be.

    The addition of Livingston and the growth of D. Green in the playoffs should help.if he gets substantial playing time and JON returns. And they will be even better if they find another deadly SG and Kerr has the team running. Speights should continue to shoot well as he did in the playoffs if the Warriors continue to ban him from taking perimeter shots.

    But, if the Warriors now install the triangle offense and get away from playing the spread 4 and continue to play Barnes unwarranted minutes. And the team does not to run often, the prognostication is not as optimistic.

    Regardless, the addition of Love will turn the Warriors into a so much better team. The reported offers by Minn. seem very fair and in my judgment very favorable to the Warriors even with the Warriors losing Lee and Thompson. If they can get abetter deal that would be me great. If management makes to deal for Love they should be taken to the wood shed.

  85. In case there was any question about the Ws most pressing personnel needs, there’s this:

    Last season the Ws had 4 players in the top 10 in +-. The 2nd unit’s performance was so awful that it gave the whole 1st team the +- numbers of All-Stars.

    Except Bogut, of course. He’s a serviceable big, but JON/Speights/Lee covered the 5 pretty well. Especially Lee.

    To make the next step up in performance, the Ws need to focus on strengthening the 2nd unit – through roster changes and better coaching. I’d thought that moving the D league affiliate to SC was a good move for the organization’s talent development, but it hasn’t paid off to date.

    It’s also interesting that the team with the 2nd most players in the +- top 10 were the Clippers. They got subpar results from their bench too.

    And then there’s Manu @ #10. He’s just a difference maker.

    • “To make the next step up in performance, the Ws need to focus on strengthening the 2nd unit – through roster changes and better coaching.”

      No, the 2nd unit is not going to make this team as it is currently constructed anywhere near a contender.

      It’s talent at the top that matters. They need to replace Lee and Bogut with another major difference maker. Somehow.

      Maybe it’s next summer, maybe not until 2016.

      • WheresMyChippy

        There is no way to know this, yet you state it as if it is fact. You’re judging the team’s performance under the direction of a complete moron! Nobody has any idea how good this roster can be until we have seen them play for a real coach.

        I believe this team is a contender and a better bench combined with an actual offensive system will take them a long way.

        • cosmicballoon

          Chippy, I couldn’t agree more.

          Last season, on paper, the Warriors had one of the best rosters in the league to start the season. Then, for the first half of the season, Jackson refused to give any of his reserves significant playing time. Rather, he tried to to force Harrison Barnes into the lineup over Draymond Green (Until Green simply outplayed him). He also never allowed Mokur to get a rhythm in the first half, and he absolutely destroyed any confidence Toney Douglas had as a backup point guard. Remember when Douglas went for 21 points against the Spurs in November? The next game he played for 6 minutes. What?!

          Looking at Douglas’s game log, I noticed that he was injured for games 8-21. Iggy was injured for games 14-25. There was significant overlap. It was interesting that the Warriors never got Douglas back into the regular rotation after he got back from injury, yet Iggy was playing his usual minutes. But, shortly after Douglas came back, the Warriors had their 10 game winning streak, and then they traded him. Douglas, IMO, should have been the guy to spell Curry for 15 mpg. If the W’s had kept him, we wouldn’t have had to be put through Blake and Crawford. (Were either of them better than Douglas? No.)

        • “There is no way to know this, yet you state it as if it is fact. ”

          Hard to imagine a coach turning a 6 seed into a top 3 seed without major influx of talent.

          The Clippers went from VDN to Doc Rivers and won 1 more game. True, Paul was out for a while, but still. I’m not sure they would have won more than a couple more games.

          I think Kerr/Gentry might be able to squeeze a few more wins out of this team, but I can’t see them winning a title or even getting to the Finals without more talent.

          Sure, that’s my opinion. I don’t disagree with that. Never said it was a fact.

          • WheresMyChippy

            I think Jackson really was THAT bad. Much worse than VDN.

            It was almost as if he was intentionally doing the exact opposite of what would help the team at every single turn. The way David Lee was used is one glaring example. But to say it was intentional would be giving him too much credit.

            Also, Steph is still getting better and continuing to do so. Klay is still getting better. Draymond is still getting better. Iggy is getting healthier (maybe?). David Lee will be put in a position to succeed instead of fail. Bogut is a crap shoot but if by some miracle he’s healthy at the end of the season we will be loads better than we were these last playoffs. The influx of talent you look for may come from the same players.

            I am hopeful. We shall see.

      • I agree Bogut is a serviceable big, although I view him more as a role player (defense) and think his pay is too high for that.

        Any reasonable way to move Bogut and his contract? Would there be any takers? What could the Ws reasonably expect to get and what would they have to take back?

        I would have no problem playing DLee and Mokur at the 5 and Ezeili, assuming he returns to full health.

  86. Need to know the answer to this question:

    Is it possible for us to re-sign Klay and Dray next summer while adding a major free agent (say Millsap, Gasol, or Love if he’s available) while also retaining Bogut and Iguodala?

    *Not asking whether we should do this. I’m simply asking whether this is technically possible given the CBA rules. Does anyone here know?*

    • dr. Z, since you omitted lee’s name in the retainees, it would be possible. speights’ contract is not guaranteed past next June, and barnes might also need to be liquidated — lee + speights + barnes in contracts is a bit over $20 m.

  87. Berdj J. Rassam

    Getting Kevin Love would be great, but not if we have to give up Thompson, Barnes, and Lee to get him.

    • warriorsablaze

      Next year we’ll have to pay Thompson a similar amount as Love to keep him… even though he’s a far less impactful player. The FO screwed up.

  88. warriorsablaze

    So Lebron taking his sweet time has basically screwed us out of our TPE. This offseason has been kind of a bummer so far. SL is a nice pick up IMO, but only works if there are subsequent moves that are offensive- minded. If this is it, then I start to swing towards Evanz-level depths of roster pessimism.

    • The TPE is a red herring.

      It’s meaningless beyond this season (which will be mostly meaningless anyway).

  89. Dateline Las Vegas:

    Iggy still resting his knee tendonitis. Barnes working hard.

    • warriorsablaze

      Good to see that Barnes is humbled and working hard… hopefully that translates to something significant on the court. If dude still can’t dribble by next season, I’m done with him.

  90. The way I see forward is next summer freeing up cap room, going after Marc Gasol, and extending Klay and Draymond.

    If we can’t get Gasol, then Bogut will have to be moved and we’ll rinse and repeat for summer of 2016.

  91. Seems to me the Warriors did’t use their trade exemption because they didn’t want to take on a contact for more than a year so as to not interfere with resigning Klay Thompson.

    Not likely that Warriors will be able to sign Love next year as a free agent as Minn. will likely trade him prior to then so they can get some value for him.

    The Warriors judgment that they can not win a championship with Love without also retaining Thompson is misplaced. It’s more likely that they can’t win a championship with Thompson without Love. If the Warriors don’t obtain Love soon the Warriors will just remain just below being a top notch team even if they win more games this year. It looks like each year we’ll say wait till next year.

  92. warriorsablaze

    So… Lebron back to Cleveland. It’ll be interesting to see how the rest of the chips fall now. Bosh to Houston? Love to Cleveland?

    Nobody to the Warriors except a back up PG. There are still roster spots to fill, but this offseason has been a bit of a bummer. Dallas and Houston stand to get significantly better.

  93. Good news! GSW just pulled ahead of Miami in odds to win the championship next year:

  94. the expiration of the 9 m.+ trade exception from jefferson had virtually nothing to do with the premier free agents like james or bosh lining up their next teams. the die was cast once the brain trust resolved not to become a lux tax payer this contract year, anticipating they’d be forced to enter by thompson’s next deal and liable for repeater penalties if they broke the barrier sooner.

    when they signed livingston they fitted a ‘hard cap’ by designating the contract as a non-taxpayer mid level exception, leaving <6 m. for remaining signings under the 'hard cap'. market prices have run high so far on players. the only way to use part of the trade exception to snag an impact reserve would be finding a multiple component/team deal that also shipped out an asset like speights, barnes, and/or their first round pick in the next draft.

    as more teams conform to the budget restrictions of the present c.b.a., the value of traded player exceptions and expiring contracts in expediting trades will continue to decline, and myers was fully aware of the risk when he chose to cash out jefferson's expiring deal.

  95. Six teams interested in Tolliver—including the Spurs.

    While at Charlotte, “He developed a strong relationship with coach Steve Clifford and a leadership role within the Hornets’ locker room.”

    • Warriors not mentioned? So much for that.

      • warriorsablaze

        At this point we can afford anyone who has interest from other teams. Our only hope for upgrade this season is through trade or getting lucky with some journeyman who has a career year here like Jack/Landry did.

  96. Won’t it be better for the Cavs to keep Wiggins, rather than trade him for Love?

    For me, start James and Wiggins together at the forward positions and forget about Love.

    Or, if the Cavs could obtain Love without giving up Wiggins (I don’t see how), can Wiggins play effectively out of the 2 position?

  97. Lacob is a shrinking violet. given that Kerr and West want as tandem og Curry-Thompson backcourt he refused to include Thompson in a trade for Love. We have learned that he has offered Lee, Barnes, Green, and a future no. 1. Did he not see that Green when given significant playing time far out performed Thompson in the playoffs? Does he not realize that Kerr has little intention to turn the Warriors into a running team meaning that Thompson has little chance of increasing from 46 percent his shooting 2’s which he mostly shoots?

    And Felty’s suggestion in his tweets that the Warriors include Iggy rather than his beloved Thompson in the deal would result in the Warriors having tno starter who shaves points off our opponent’s scoring.

    Given how so many teams have passed us this summer any dream
    Of the Warriors being a contender is just a mirage in the distance without the Warriors obtaining Love.

    The present management no longer deserves our support.

  98. Bazemore to Hawks, 2 yrs $4m. We couldn’t have used him?

  99. this is certainly interesting-

    “Boston Celtics assistant coach Darren Erman, who the Warriors fired last season due to a violation of company policy, watched the game alongside Harrison Barnes, Festus Ezeli, Draymond Green and some of his former co-workers. Erman was the head coach for the Warriors’ undefeated summer league team last season.”

    If his recordings either weren’t sanctioned by the higher-ups or completely appreciated, is there ANY chance he hangs with the team after he is fired? Looks like he got the last laugh, preacher…

    • Also calls into question the idea that Draymond was such a fervent Jackson supporter, right?

    • warriorsablaze

      Probably doesn’t really mean much… there was clearly a rift between MJax and certain members of his staff. I’m assuming he wasn’t hanging around with Lindsey Hunter or Pete Myers; Jackson’s inner circle guys.

      I think the players try to stay out of this stuff… I wouldn’t expect Dray or HB to shun Erman whenever they cross paths.

      • ” I wouldn’t expect Dray or HB to shun Erman whenever they cross paths.”

        Crossing paths? They were literally sitting next to each other on the sideline. That doesn’t seem like a random occurrence.

  100. So are they holding on to Barnes in the (vain) hope of yet landing Love?

    moto @97 explains how limited their options are. They can’t get significantly better without giving up major players, i.e. Lee, because of his contract, and that’s still not enough. This won’t change in the near future.

    I’m skeptical they might try to showcase Barnes with the starters, @86, because it might backfire. Really, playing him with the starters is the only way to get any production out of him and spell Iguodala. But he performed miserably when Iguodala went down.

    However bad MJ’s coaching of the subs, Barnes as primary scorer should have figured something out and produced regardless—and didn’t. He’ll drag the subs down again next season, especially as they are constituted now, with Livingston at point.

    It’s my major regret, that they couldn’t dump Barnes and find some kind of midrange player, really anyone. The cost of keeping Barnes is the loss of whatever return they might get in a trade, plus the loss of development and playing time of whatever player who stays on the bench while they keep giving him minutes.

    • “They can’t get significantly better without giving up major players, i.e. Lee, because of his contract, and that’s still not enough. This won’t change in the near future.”

      I think they will find a taker for Lee by next summer. Worst case scenario is two years of this squad and then re-load in summer 2016.

      • Another option, assuming he’s got some years left, is that Lee, when his contract is up, might negotiate a lesser contract, freeing up slots and bucks elsewhere. This team, the way it’s built, needs to develop depth and and flexibility for the years to come. They’re not going to be able to pull the trigger on a major player—and they may not be that attractive to such a player in the years to come.

    • warriorsablaze

      I think they are holding onto Barnes because they know his value is low right now but believe he is worth more… even if “more” just means a useful rotation player. You don’t win buying high and selling low.

      He’s shown that he can both score and rebound when put in position to do so… (meaning not iso post-ups at the elbow). He’s certainly not a star or transcendent player…he needs to be managed… but he could be a positive if used in a manner that plays to his strengths and if he gets a little smarter on D.

      I consider Barnes to be one of the key measuring sticks of Kerr as a coach.

      • This will be the fifth year and third coach who has tried to turn Barnes into a basketball player (including Roy Williams at UNC). I’m tremendously skeptical he’ll ever be able to take off the training wheels.

        • warriorsablaze

          I share your skepticism, believe me… but what no coach has apparently done is change Barnes’ mind about what kind of player he needs to be. I didn’t watch much UNC, but I get the impression from scouting reports and comments that he took a lot of contested two point shots and iso’s there as well. He clearly modeled his game after Kobe, but doesn’t have the skills to actually play that style at the highest level.

          He probably will never be able to take off the training wheels because he has gaping holes in his game that must be managed. He also has strengths that can be accentuated… to what degree remains to be seen.

          Since he’s on the team for now, there’s no point in brooding in unrelenting skepticism. May as well inject a little hope that he can at least become a positive player.

      • WAB: “You don’t win buying high and selling low.”

        I’m not sure I agree with this, as the Warriors have passed on a lot of useful players because of their need to raise Barnes’ stock/get a return/save face.

        Bazemore might be a prime example: chased this offseason by the Spurs, and signed by acolytes of the Spurs in Atlanta. A genuine 3 and D wing with playmaking abilities.

        I have seen many truly great and empowered GMs make up their minds almost immediately on players, and pull the trigger on them just as immediately. (Think Dunleavy and Murphy for Jackson and Harrington. Or Anthony Randolph for David Lee, which caused an Adam Lauridsen meltdown.) Trying to raise the stock of bad players winds up simply hurting the team.

        imo, Barnes is a sunk cost and should be traded as soon as possible. (Bucher reported that the Warriors already passed on Afflalo and a future #1 for him, which if true is simply beyond belief.)

        • warriorsablaze

          Bazemore seems like the opposite… I’d say we sold way low on him, as evidenced by how he played after he left and the interest he received this offseason.

          • You’re not following. I brought up Bazemore as an example of an opportunity cost. A player who was misused/not developed/cast off because Barnes was in his way. D’Antoni employed him very effectively at both wings, but particularly at SF, immediately after picking him up.

            Now he’s being chased and signed by the best talent evaluators in the league. As I predicted.

            So you see, there is a cost to keeping Barnes in order to raise his trade value. A cost, in my opinion, that has already far exceeded the potential benefit.

        • warriorsablaze

          The Dunleavy and Randolph trades brought back very good players so I’m not sure we really “sold low” on them…. other than one rumor (with Mr. Credible Ric Bucher as the source) we have no idea what, if any, offers other teams have made for Barnes.

          There may be no offers on the table at all… or they may be so ludicrous that they don’t improve the roster enough to let go of whatever potential they may feel Barnes still has. Trading him last summer could have brought back something. This summer, probably not so much.

          • I probably shouldn’t have used Nellie as an example, but the fact that he was a genius at finding talent no one else wanted does not change the fact that he was selling low on Dunleavy, Murphy and Randolph. They were all high draft picks who still carried high expectations with them at the time they were traded. The Pacers were desperate to rid themselves of Stephen Jackson after the Malice in the Palace (and a nightclub shooting incident), and no one else in the league would touch him. And David Lee was widely viewed as over-rated, a creation of Mike D’Antoni.

            Lest we forget:


            But regardless of whether these are good examples or not, the point remains. Continuing to carry a bust in the hope he shows enough of a glimmer to tease a better deal out of a sucker comes with very significant opportunity costs. Particularly for a team with hopes of contention.

          • warriorsablaze

            Dunleavy and Murphy had been in the league for 5 and 6 years respectively when they were traded… I’m not sure who was hoping they would become more. I think their value was certainly lower than when they were drafted, but not lower than they were actually worth at the time. Barnes had a notably bad season which I think swung his perceived value below what he actually is… or will be, worth. Season 3 is a pretty typical “break-out” year, so I guess we’ll see if he can up his game to helpful rotation player… which is all I can see him doing at this point.

            I’m not convinced that they are holding onto him out of a cynical ploy to save face or artificially up his value… I’m just not sure they consider him a bust. Yet.

          • Personally, I think if there is at least one GM left in the league who still believes Barnes can be a good NBA player, he’s overvalued.

  101. You guys see that Caboclo kid on Toronto? Giannis has some competition for most intriguing young player in the league now.

  102. warriorsablaze

    Looks like Morrow is joining the Thunder. Good pick-up for them… add him to the list of former Warriors, along with Reggie, Baze, and Tolliver, who would have filled out our bench nicely.

    • I’m just curious why teams aren’t looking at Reggie. I can’t find out why OKC let him go, and Morrow, whom they just picked up, is a lesser player. Reggie can shoot and get off a variety of shots quickly. He can dribble and penetrate. He has high b-ball IQ and can see the floor and find other players on the fly. All the things Barnes cannot do.

      Apparently his knee is OK, because he played a full season with D-League and finished out San Miguel’s season, now over. One of the SM coaches, Todd Purves, is also a scout for Memphis. I’m curious if anything is passed on to them.

      He played for a high octane offense at VMI for four years and led the NCAA in scoring two years, though admittedly in a weak conference. But like Curry, he got a lot of experience being a primary scorer and team leader.

      • warriorsablaze

        Who knows…. possibly due to the fact that it’s hard to change people’s impression of you once they’ve formed one.

        He really never showed much after leaving GSW and was injured a bit. I think it’s probably easy for marginal NBA players to fall through the cracks… especially as they age. The world is filled with shiny young “prospects” with “upside”.

        • He had knee problems with Charlotte, but also the head coach, Dunlap, was an absolute nut and didn’t play him. So it goes.

          • that Cha coach was replaced this season and the team revived with a ball movement offense (mcroberts just signed w. Mia a beneficiary), too much for the ‘elite woeyr defense’ apparently.

            williams’ injuries adversely affected not just his playing opportunities but his shooting, and his value in the assoc. is pretty much defined by it — accuracy inside and beyond the 3 pt. line fell to barnes-like numbers.

  103. D’Antoni should get a commission for Lin, Bazemore, and Meeks contracts. Look at how he brought those players out.

    • +1 True of every great coach. Look what Pop does for his bench players. Thibs for his (DJ Augustin!). Hornacek.

      Jason Kidd for Shaun Livingston.

  104. More on Reggie, @ 105

    Reggie didn’t get enough shots/minutes for his stats to be meaningful at Charlotte, and I’m not sure it was his knee then that kept him out, but rather Dunlap. His numbers for Tulsa, D-League, and San Miguel, however, were quite good, and he played heavy minutes, so I assume the knee’s OK? His assist numbers were good as well. He can read the court and find players, and prides himself in that.

    Barnes went through a 20 game slump this past season where he hit below 20% on 3s, which should tell us something about his head and maybe motivation. What won’t appear in the stats during those games was all the times he passed on a shot or couldn’t make anything happen, not even drive and find another player.

    Reggie can play 3 or 2, and both Charlotte and OKC tried him out some minutes at point. He can dribble. If he gets hot, he can run with the starters.

    If players like Reggie are a dime a dozen, here’s my dime. Pick out the best of the lot. They’re going to need another scorer of his type with this lineup.

    Also I can’t help it. I get excited just seeing him on the court.

    • Reggie with San Miguel (yes, this isn’t stiff competition). Note the assists in the first seconds and @1:20. Also look at his ability to create a shot off the dribble, to get a shot off quickly, with hands in his face (cf. Barnes):

  105. Last year Nedovic kept the Warriors from looking at Ian Clark. This season, from Holiday. Craft looked better at point.

  106. From ESPN:

    Justin Holiday, Golden State Warriors | Grade: A
    It’s not often you see a player smile while making a game-winner, but Holiday couldn’t help but grin as he caught an airball (or a Kobe assist?) under the basket to flip in, effectively keeping Golden State’s summer league winning streak alive and well. Holiday has always lacked a “specialty” that really appeals to NBA teams, but his smooth all-around game and length served him well Saturday.

    Also from ESPN (would the Bulls trade him for Barnes?):

    Tony Snell, Chicago Bulls | Grade: A
    Maybe Doug McDermott loaned out his jumper for the evening, as it was Snell who stole the show in his debut by hitting just about everything he put up (10-for-14, 27 points) while McDermott struggled (2-for-8). Chicago can always use more perimeter shooting and scoring, and Snell looked confident firing from deep and flying in with long strides on drives to the rim.

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