Love’s Labour’s Lost

“The words of Mercury are harsh after the songs of Apollo. You that way: we this way.”     — Armado

Kevin Love to the Cavs for Andrew Wiggins, Anthony Bennett, and a protected 2015 first-round draft pick. That’s the melancholy news greeting Warriors fans this morning.    

In truth, I don’t think the Warriors had a chance the moment that Andrew Wiggins was offered. Even if Flip truly preferred Klay Thompson — and there are sound basketball reasons to think he might have — his owner Glen Taylor would never have let him take Klay over Wiggins. Too many season ticket sales, too many marketing dollars at stake. Wiggins is the player to excite the fanbase, to fill the near-empty Target Center; not Klay.

We already learned this lesson in Warriors land, with the competition between Klay and The Brand, Harrison Barnes. Was it only a year ago that 99% of Warriors fans and media regarded Barnes as The Anointed One, and Klay as the red-headed stepchild? Not to mention the Warriors PR department.

The Wolves haul is good but not great. I think Bennett will be flipped to the perpetually tanking 76ers for Thaddeus Young. The Wolves will continue to try to win, if only to pacify Ricky Rubio, whom they hope (forlornly) to re-sign. They are trapped in basketball purgatory: neither good enough to win, nor bad enough to tank. While Wiggins projects to be something Harrison Barnes will never be, a good wing defender, I don’t see him having an impact rookie year. Nor may he ever — he’s got a long way to go.

There is one major difference between this Kevin Love trade situation and the trade of Carmelo Anthony to the Knicks that I failed to consider in my previous analysis. Waiting to the trade deadline to make the deal paid major dividends for the Nuggets. And they didn’t give a damn whether or not it pissed Melo off. I expected the Wolves to follow the Nuggets’ script.

But while the Nuggets’ patience was rewarded by a gigantic haul of good veteran players, they didn’t get a marquee name. Danilo Gallinari was the star of the group.

The Wolves, by contrast, are getting a number one draft pick, and “potential superstar,” in Andrew Wiggins. Even if they might have gotten a sweetened deal by waiting, they had a huge incentive to land Wiggins not just before the season, but well before the season.

Season ticket sales.

292 Responses to Love’s Labour’s Lost

  1. cosmicballoon

    Another way to look at it is the haul for the Wolves is two consecutive No. 1 overall picks and a first round pick next year which will likely be in the high 20s. Can anyone think of another trade that involved two consecutive overall No. 1 picks and an upcoming first rounder? Also, this trade would never have happened if the Cavs hadn’t bungled the Anthony Bennett pick so badly last year.

    You’re totally right about season ticket sales.

  2. What a steal for Cleveland. They don’t even have to take back Martin.

  3. Is Bob Myers on the phone with Larry Bird these days?

    • Your proposed trade of Barnes for a draft pick would make sense for both teams. If only Barnes could play.

      I think it’s too late to sucker Bird, or anyone else.

  4. Yes, Wiggins will bring the ticket sales, same reason Lacob wanted Love.

  5. “The T’wolves had hopes of unloading contracts in a Love deal, but that won’t be happening. Minnesota still has a goal of freeing itself of J.J. Barea, Luc Mbah a Moute and Alexey Shved, league sources said.”

    The above from Yahoo Sports.

    Would the Wolves take Barnes for Shved or a Moute?

  6. May be “the brand” will wake up this season? Perhaps a summer of yoga has loosen his hip?

  7. We know that Love + Sterling > Lee + Klay + draft pick was discussed, but do we have any good reason to think the Wolves would have done it pre Lebron>Cleveland? It would have given them a more competitive team next season, but I don’t think they would have pulled the trigger. Low marquee value plus the expense and hit on the cap plus the likely chance Klay would bolt. It would have been hard to improve had they made it.

    Shouldn’t the Warriors FO have known that then? And their chances of getting Love post Lebron>Cleveland had to have been next to nil. So why did they keep entertaining the trade?

    Same question as last season. Last season they put their primary effort into Howard, which never had a chance, then fell back to plan B, Iguodala, which at the very least was expensive. This season they put all their efforts into Love, which may never have had a chance either, and I assume held on to other trade pieces until now, just in case.

    Were there no other options they could have considered both years? Timing is everything in a trade: players get taken if you wait.

  8. There’s nothing binding about Love’s commitment to stay in Cleveland, is there? Didn’t Howard commit to LA and bolt after a season (I’ve forgotten)?

    It’s unlikely Love will leave with Lebron on the team. But you have to wonder if Love would have stayed with the Warriors had any trade happened, especially with the Martin/Klay sideline. It’s unlikely they would have done that well to keep him.

    (Meant to put this comment here.)

  9. There is only one reason that Wolves made and was to rid themselves of Love’s contract and free up money to sign some good free agents with that money and to take back cheap contracts of players with some potential. It would have been folly for them to have waited and kept a player that didn’t want to be on their roster. And the Warriors were offered a good deal for Love prior to Labron joining Cleveland and turned it down. The Warriors are a total mess. They now have to resign Klay at a inflated price. It’s said that posters do not see front office for
    What they are- complete idiots. It’s the Warriors that are in a perpetual state of purgatory.

    • cosmicballoon

      Well, Felty, he will become a fan favorite if he makes the team. Fans love the underdog. I do wonder if he has a little bit of Draymond Green in him. He’s a tough defender, hard nosed and can’t shoot from the outside. He also went to school for 4 years at a Big 10 school. It will be interesting to watch, that’s for sure.

      • Draymond can defend 5 different positions at times. Whatever part of Green that Craft may have, I promise you it won’t be that part.

    • Kerr: “He sort of embodies what we want to be and what we’re becoming as a franchise.”

      Couldn’t they just give Craft a merit badge and try out a real NBA PG prospect?

  10. Scalabrine predicts better results under Kerr, disses Mark Jackson, get’s an “at the end of the day” in:

    http://www.ibabuzz.com/warriors/2014/08/06/brian-scalabrine-says-warriors-coaching-staff-will-better-players-better-organized-steve-kerr/

  11. Durant withdraws from Team USA:

    http://sports.yahoo.com/news/kevin-durant-won-t-play-in-world-cup–says-he-s-too-tired-232830726.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

    Credible? Justified? I don’t really care. I’d like to see them all quit. A completely mercenary endeavor, in which professional players are commercially exploited, and fans cynically encouraged to indulge the base tribal instincts that are tearing the world apart.

    • thank you. more than a few fans seem to think the players should feel an obligation to represent or honour the glorious fatherland, or demonstrate the hegemony of the n.b.a. in world hoops competition. as if there weren’t hundreds of other ways in the off season for players to contribute something constructive with humanitarian efforts in refugee aid, housing, health care, education, land mine removal, women’s rights and welfare (given the exemplary work of the n.f.l., and greg oden’s recent contribution), environmental restoration.

      o.k. for the players if they like the experience of hoops with different ‘mates and coaches, facing international competition, but waving the flag or the n.b.a. trademark should have ø relevance.

    • +1

      I can’t think of any reason why other players shouldn’t drop out now. And without Durant, competition will be a grind.

      • +1

        Two weeks too late for Pacer season ticket holders. What if Steph or Klay get hurt? Beg for Nedo to come back early?

  12. MT hasn’t given up on Love:

    http://blogs.mercurynews.com/thompson/2014/08/07/warriors-really-going-pass-kevin-love-stephen-curry-tandem/

    I think he’s wrong to assume that there’s any deal the Warriors could put on the table that the TWolves would take. I don’t think Glen Taylor can be dissuaded from Wiggins. If Lebron raised the value of the Cavs franchise by $500 million, might not Wiggins on a rookie deal be worth $100 million?

  13. Berdj J. Rassam

    The Warriors were offering more value to the Wolves than the Cavs are. Barnes and Lee (even if a 1st rounder is or is not added into it) for Love is a better deal for the Wolves.

  14. Another Scalabrine interview:

    http://www.ibabuzz.com/warriors/2014/08/07/brian-scalabrine-mark-jacksons-staff-didnt-prepare-warriors-championship-caliber-push-stephen-curry-defense/

    The more I listen to this guy, the more I think Jackson might have been right about him.

    • Lots of bark but not much brain.

      • In fact he’s being downright stupid. Criticizing MJax this way, especially this soon, is not only bad form, it doesn’t help his cause at all, assuming he has one.

        • scalawag and the preacher something significant in common. they both realize that broadcasting is better $$ relative to the work they’re disposed to take on, compared with coaching. erman got his start as a volunteer high school coach.

          • cosmicballoon

            Get Scal next to Charles Barkley and we could get some really entertaining commentary. Add Charlie Villenueva to the mix and you’re really in business.

        • Exactly. Nice combination of arrogance, self-promotion, and backstabbing there, Scal (especially since it seems clear he was the source for Woj’s anti-MJax hit pieces on Yahoo). As a rookie assistant at the bottom of the coaching totem pole, it’s hard to imagine how he thought his role was anything besides keeping his mouth shut & showing he could contribute to a team.

      • Do note, however, that Lacob offered Scalabrine an interview, a chance to stay.

    • warriorsablaze

      I don’t really care about Scal’s personality… I do care that his account pretty much confirms what many of us thought about MJax’s coaching style, and that letting him go was indeed the correct decision.

      Whether or not Kerr is the right choice remains to be seen, but his reputation for being thorough and prepared is certainly welcomed.

      • Scalabrini said only what was obvious to everyone here. No offensive plan, no player development. He didn’t go into Jackson’s character or management skills, and didn’t discuss personalities. Considering that Jackson went out of his way to publicly humiliate him, I’d say Scal’s comments were pretty restrained. More open and honest than NBA fans are used to, but that’s about it.

    • the most forward thinking and intriguing coaching hires this summer, by far, were Hammon and Blatt. will be following the progress of both closely, along with Messina. kerr might be tied for fourth in my interest investment (lots of cooks in that kitchen, might be hard to tell what he is really responsible for) along with van G. if kerr continues to be so bland into the season it could be dull slogging ahead.

    • This is encouraging, but it’s not consistent with running the triangle. The championship Bulls and Lakers were both walk it up teams consistently in the bottom half of the league in fast break points.

      Lakers 09-10: http://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat/fastbreak-points-per-game?date=2010-06-18

      Bulls 97-98: http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1998.html

      Let’s see how Kerr resolves the contradiction

      • warriorsablaze

        There is no contradiction.

        There’s nothing inherent about the triangle offense that prevents you from being an uptempo, fast break team. The triangle is a half court offense…just like the high pick and roll, Spurs motion, etc are half court offenses. Perhaps the triangle takes a few more seconds and passes to get a shot than, say, the high PnR… but, again, that has nothing to do with fast breaks.

        Those Bulls and Lakers teams played slow because Phil Jackson decided that was the best strategy for his roster, not because the triangle prevented them from running.

        • You seem to be saying that a post-up system, which is what the triangle is (and what the Spurs sytem is NOT), can be consistent with uptempo offense.

          I’m afraid I have to disagree — it takes time to set up post action. If the Warriors do play at a fast tempo, it will be because the triangle winds up being a small part of their offense.

          The Spurs offense is almost always triggered by a high pick. Pick and roll can be played with pace, triangle is much slower. That’s the reason the Bulls and Lakers played slowly, not because Jordan and Pippen and Kobe were better suited for the half-court.

          It’s difficult to envisage this in the abstract. Let’s see how it plays out.

          • warriorsablaze

            The links you referenced above were Fast Break Points… no Fast Break Points are scored using a high pick and roll.

            We’re clearly talking about two different things. Yes, they may use more shot clock when they settle into a half court set than a high PnR offense… but that has nothing to do with whether or not they push the tempo in transition.

            Kerr has said from his very first interview that he wanted to push the pace and include high PnR, along with elements of the triangle and Spurs motion. His words. I don’t know why we keep talking about the Bulls and the pure triangle on this blog when he specifically said it wouldn’t look like either.

    • Three excerpts:

      “Another concern with the Triangle pertains to shot selection. Because it mainly operates out of the post – another name for the system is the “Triple Post” – it does generate a lot of mid-range jump shots. With the evolution and increased use of analytics, offenses today are shooting fewer long twos and instead are focusing on three-point shots and securing points at the rim. As defenses have adjusted to encourage offenses to shoot from the mid-range area, long twos are shots that draw a groan from more analytical thinkers. However, those who take a more old-school approach to the game believe the shot still has value. They argue that taking what the defensive gives you is still a good modus operandi.”

      “The biggest issue with the Triangle is that coaches not named Phil Jackson–Tim Floyd, Kurt Rambis, Jim Cleamons–have struggled to successfully implement it.”

      “One of the downsides of having one or two dominant ball-handlers who do the lion’s share of the creating, such as high usage point guards, is that offenses are susceptible to high turnover rates.”

      The best way to avoid turnovers is to get the ball into the hands of extraordinarily exceptional players who can score anywhere and break a press, i.e. Kobe and MJ, or into dominant scoring bigs, Shaq etc. The Warriors have neither.

      Most, I don’t see how it makes best use of high scoring, talented guards, especially Curry. None of the triangle teams, flops or successes, had high caliber PGs.

      But it does make some good defense of the system. This is a pretty good piece. And the triangle is not adverse to early offense—unless your primary scorers are guards, as is the case with the Warriors?

  15. As predicted, Marshon Brooks no longer in NBA. Just signed in Italy.

  16. Interesting rumor here, that the Warriors would have completed the trade for Love pre-draft if he’d been willing to commit to them longterm:

    http://bluemanhoop.com/2014/08/09/kevin-love-saga-ruin-trade-warriors/

    Given the multitude of rumors out there, it would be ridiculous to assume that the Warriors never put Klay Thompson on the table.

    • I believe it’s also possible Klay made it known he was unwilling to sign a long-term deal with the Wolves.

  17. It’s clear that the Warriors had a deal in place for Love pre-draft and the Warriors and the Warriors rejected it because Love would not commit to long term deal with the Warriors. While there were reports that he would, if he would not, one has to cut the Warriors some slack for if they had made the deal and he didn’t resign the Warriors roster would have been in shambles. I can see them not wanting to take the risk.

    But now can withdraw my claim that Lacob was an idiot by not being willing to give up Lee and Thompson for Love and Marin.

    I have often argued that the Warriors are not an extra possession team ( OR plus steals minus turnovers) for they don’t have many players who are plus extra possession guys. Glad to see that that Scalabrine has put out high negative turnover differential as the responsibility of Coach Jackson. Under Don Nelson we always had a positive turnover differential (usually plus 2) but such was overshadowed by the Warriors having an extremely negative OR differential (usually minus 4 or 5).

    Also think that Scalibrine criticizing Jackson for not insisting on Curry playing more defense may have some merit. Can’t remember that being pointed out on any Warrior blog.

    • I disagree with Scalabrine on that point. That’s just the kind of rigid coaching idealogy that caused Lionel Hollins’ teams to consistently underachieve. Crossmatches are essential to winning. If Phil Jackson could put Scottie Pippen and Kobe Bryant on troublesome point guards, and Spoelstra could put Lebron James on Derrick Rose, and Popovich could put Leonard on Klay and Green on Curry and hide Tony Parker on Barnes, then why can’t Mark Jackson do the same thing?

      Scalabrine is an idiot. Curry is the Warriors weakest defender, and he should be hidden on the weakest offensive player. He’s also the Warriors primary ballhandler and best offensive player, and saving him on the defensive end is extremely helpful to the team.

  18. @21

    Not committing on the part of Love and Klay explains a lot of things and makes a lot of sense. I really doubt either would have found their new teams attractive.

    It does leave questions about what GSW has been doing the last month with their we-need-Klay-for-defense campaign. Did they think the Wolves would cave in and that if they got a Lee and Barnes for Love deal, Love might be more inclined to commit? Hard to believe. Or were they just covering themselves?

    At least they didn’t pull the trigger regardless, as they planned to do with Dwight Howard last summer.

    While not binding, such commitments must have much weight. I was mistaken. I don’t think Howard did commit to the Lakers, but rather they assumed they could keep him with Kobe on the team.

    Which leads to speculation where GSW would be now if they had made the Howard trade. No Howard, no Bogut (he was part of some deals), no Iguodala, and a lot of money to spend.

    On another transcendent player.

  19. If GSW knew they weren’t getting Love, why did they sign SL?

  20. warriors ablaze @ 17,

    +1

    The ability to fast break is not connected to the half court offense that is run. Staying disciplined with any half court offense until you get a good shot may lower the total number of possessions in a game but it has no bearing on whether the team decides to run after gaining possession. And if you are getting better shots then there is no problem.

    I’ve provided a number of arguments in prior threads about why a Triangle or Princeton variant could work well for the Dubs. One reason I forgot to mention previously is the analogy to why Phil Jackson first implemented it in Chicago: Detroit’s “Jordan Rules” (for how Detroit would completely skew their defense to stop Michael Jordan.). Has anyone else noticed the “Curry Rules” other teams employ? Having a system that allows other teammates to be threats will soften the defense enough to unleash Curry (and Thompson.)

    • No it won’t. The only thing the triangle accomplished was to keep the ball out of Jordan and Bryant’s hands for most of the game, force them to share — which is what Phil Jackson wanted.

      In the fourth quarter, Jordan and Kobe always resorted to hero ball in close games. Playing 1 on 3 while Tex Winter bitched and moaned in Phil’s ear.

      The Bulls and Lakers won because they were all-star teams, and because Jordan and Kobe DITCHED the triangle in the fourth quarter.

      Do you seriously believe that taking Curry off the ball is the solution for the Warriors? That the triangle will get him open against teams committed to stopping him? You are dreaming.

      The Warriors have potentially one of the greatest pick and roll point guards in HISTORY on their team. But don’t know it, and may never know it, because Lacob is committed to non-scoring centers who fear the free throw line.

      Would you put Steve Nash in the triangle? Force Steve Nash to feed the post and spot up on the three point line waiting for a return pass while being guarded by a 6-7″ defensive specialist?

      (Wait a minute… That’s exactly what Steve Kerr did when he Fat-Shaqed the Phoenix Suns! And immediately fell out of the playoff picture, and got Terry Porter fired.)

      Makes no sense to me.

  21. The dream team, the power of Power Point:

    Myers, Warriors co-owner Joe Lacob, assistant GM Kirk Lacob, and director of player personnel Travis Schlenk met with Kerr for more than three hours last Tuesday in Oklahoma City, where Kerr was calling the Thunder-Clippers game. Myers and Lacob said the team’s biggest questions were about Kerr’s lack of coaching experience, which he outlined during a PowerPoint presentation. “He blew our socks off,” Lacob said. “Steve Kerr and Bob Myers together is my dream team. That is a dream team.”

    Also:

    Kerr said his system will have principles of the Triangle Offense that won Jackson an NBA-record 11 titles as coach of the Bulls and Lakers but “will not be the Bulls of the 1990s.” He said it will be more tailored to suit star Stephen Curry’s pick-and-roll abilities while adding some of the off-the-ball movement the Spurs do so well.

    http://www.spin.ph/sports/basketball/news/warriors-coach-steve-kerr-triangle-offense-stephen-curry-pick-and-roll

    The last comment is essentially meaningless in vague references that haven’t been put together in a coherent way. We have no idea what Kerr will do and he hasn’t figured it out either.

    • warriorsablaze

      “We have no idea what Kerr will do and he hasn’t figured it out either.”

      From appropriately reasonable to baseless assumption presented as fact in one sentence. Well done.

      • It’s not a criticism, in fact could be good news. He’s not going to try to run the straight triangle, though may experiment with it. He’s suggested all kinds of things that haven’t taken shape yet, not related to triangle offense at all. He’s going to have a lot of experimentation to do, which can only happen when he takes over with roster. The question is how long it will take him and his staff to pull things together.

        Things would have been different had he gone to the Knicks, where I suspect he’d be following directions straight from Jackson. I’m thinking Edgar Bergen and Charlie McCarthy.

      • Of course he hasn’t figured it out yet. He’s never coached a day in his life. He has no idea how his players will perform his offense. And thus he can have very little idea what his offense will wind up being.

        Even his staff has admitted as much. When asked what advice he’s given Kerr, Alvin Gentry responded: “The only advice I’ve given him is that if he feels like trying something, he should try it.” Does that sound like the offense is written in stone?

        The NBA isn’t powerpoint. And Kerr has been speaking in contradictions. No one knows how the hell this is going to play out, least of all Kerr. This isn’t a “baseless assumption.” It’s something completely self-evident.

  22. Don’t think Scalibrine was saying that the Warriors should not cross-match. Only indicated that Jackson did not require Curry to play defense as the Bulls coach required Rose to play defense. Hardly thinks his comments place him in the idiot category.

    That characterization more apt for someone who did not want Love if we had to take back Martin. That was your position.

    • As I recall it, FB don’t want to take back Martin AND give up Klay for Love.

      I think there are rational and valid reasons for and against executing a Love-Martin for DLee-Klay-1st round pick. (or Barnes instead of the 1st rounder?)

      I would hesitate to characterize either argument as idiocy.

      As for me, I would have reluctantly pulled the trigger, especially if I could of got Barnes included instead of the pick.

  23. lacob should be pleased his personal pick barnes is preparing for life after hoops. his time off from training and work out routines is being invested in an internship with facebook ; there’s really no down time from marketing himself .

    • Barnes may be on to something: how to be a famous basketball player without actually being a basketball player.

  24. Understandably this is just a ProAm, but Draymond’s stroke is looking much improved none the less.

    • He’s not muscling up as much. He also looks more relaxed on the dribble.

      The simplest and easiest way to improve the team is to give Green more minutes, especially with the starters. Can he fill in at the 3, spelling Iguodala?

    • Jeez, way better and much different shot than last season.

    • Beautiful.

      1) Much less jump, which I argued for.
      2) shorter stroke
      3) quicker release, on the way up.

      His form is much better than Barnes, who pulls the ball back too far over his head.

    • Talk about a guy who exudes confidence. If he plays 30+ mpg, that will add a couple more wins right to the team total from last season.

  25. Nedo apparently did NOT break his foot. False alarm.

  26. The Hammon hire is not some kind of PR stunt. Her story is interesting. She has the background, apparently knows her stuff, and has won the respect of coaches and players.

    It’s not hard to see why Pop liked her:

    “She’s been perfect,” the Spurs coach said in the NBA feature. “She knows when to talk and when to shut up. That’s as simple as you can put it, and a lot of people don’t figure that out.”

    http://espn.go.com/wnba/story/_/id/11317415/wnba-how-san-antonio-stars-becky-hammon-became-spur

  27. Barnes hard at work this off season.

    • warriorsablaze

      This reeks of recency bias… simply because we made no major moves.

      We basically had the top starting 5 in the league last season, and SL and Rush are better than any bench players we had last season (other than DG, of course).

      To me, Dallas is the only West team who made an obvious significant improvement, but how big that improvement is remains to be seen. Portland overachieved last season so I don’t see them moving up.

      I prefer to be underrated anyway…. more fun to root for an underdog.

      • those projected wins bunch the top three seeds closely, and 4-8 even closer to each other, within 2 wins which is margin for error over 82 games. hard to see much separation now between Dal, Por, Mem, Hou, GS, but they chose to exclude Phx from that group.

        if a team isn’t jockeying for lottery position, it’s post season wins that matter, and the exact seedings that influence those can’t be predicted now. GS fans might expect two or more, but fewer than eight, post season wins next spring.

      • cosmicballoon

        I think the experts are also injecting the new coach factor into this prediction. Kerr will be out-coached against the top coaches in the league, and it will basically be up to the Warriors core to make up for that discrepancy.

        The Warriors record in close games will all depend on if the offense plays to Curry’s strengths or not. If Curry is continually blitzed again every 4th quarter, the Warriors will lose games they should win. If the offense can free him up, he will be one of, if not the deadliest, closer in the league this season.

        Overall, the Warriors talent and experience level is better this season than last. Draymond and Klay are hitting their primes, Curry is a Superstar and Lee can still be a double-double machine. These pieces are enough to carry this squad to 50+ wins. If Bogut and Ezeli remain healthy and Rush and Livingston play well, then we’re looking at 60 wins. So 49 is certainly too low, so 55-58 is probably the number we’re looking at.

    • apparently the ‘experts’ see minimal impact from parsons/chandler in Dal (with marion and carter subtracted) or thomas in Phx. morey in Hou made possibly an intriguing hedge for replacing parsons, importing a 6’9 perimeter guy from Greece, Papanikolaou, who led his league in 3 pt. shooting with .52+.

    • I think it’s unrealistic to expect Livingston and Rush to play like they once did or for Bogut to stay healthy.

      • warriorsablaze

        Livingston had a good season last year. If he can be like that he’ll meet my expectations. Though he missed the playoffs, Bogut played 67 games last year…

        No idea where Rush is at…

        • Me too. I’m concerned with his turf toe.

          I’m hoping for the best for BRush…

          • Livingston had turf toe, but he came back for the playoffs and put up decent numbers (better than during the season). Turf toe can be an issue, but it also can not be an issue. Just have to hope he’s on the right side of this injury. It’s not like he doesn’t deserve a little luck on his side given his history.

      • relying on livingston as the primary reserve guard is problematic because he can function much better as a substitute within a game when the starters are all healthy, but not in the other critical role of the back up — as a replacement starter, whether for curry, thompson, or iguodala.

        • warriorsablaze

          He started for a playoff team last season.

          • woeyr fans are making the error of projecting last season’s results from a very different Brk team onto the current roster. they should note how many players were on the court with livingston for nearly all of his minutes who could create their own shots from the dribble — at least two, sometimes three or four. [j.johnson, d.williams, p.pierce, k.garnett]. the lack of such players, and the failure of barnes to develop into one as he was expected by the lacobites, is one of the flaws of the GS roster. Brk put together wins and made the post season after williams resumed his spot as starting guard — they struggled at or below .500 when livingston started in his place — playing in tandem with johnson and livingston.

            if kerr is spreading the floor on offense, should livingston replace curry, thompson, or iguodala because one is inactive, there will not be the same 3 pt. potential to diffuse the defense. they would have to have a separate offense when livingston is on the ball and curry is on the bench.

  28. felt-guv, please help me a bit with the twits, semi-literate at best in that tongue. are alternative names for the LA team being suggested because of the ownership change, or is there another cause for slinging the epithets ? did griffin have a breast reduction procedure, for them to get re-branded as boobjobs, or is that merely an LA stereotype (probably a fair number in Tx or Mia don’t you think).

    after referring to them as the sterlings to contrast with the bussies for some time, have to derive an alternate to the mundane LA-C myself.

    • Now that the Clippers sale has gone through irrevocably, there has been some speculation that Ballmer will change the name of the team ASAP. I was merely giving my friendly 2 cents, in the spirit of a NoCal partisan.

      It’s probably too late this year, but I would expect a name change by next season.

    • From my observations, the Clips, including Doc Rivers, complain to the Refs and flop more than any other team, so they are the Floppers or the Whiners.

  29. warriorsablaze

    Here’s where I join the Feltbot cynicism team. It all depends on degree, of course. It will be good for stretches, but taking the ball out of Steph’s hands as a general plan is a surefire way to limit his impact. I guess we’ll have to wait and see how it all comes together.

    http://www.ibabuzz.com/warriors/2014/08/14/warriors-stephen-curry-play-ball-steve-kerrs-new-look-offense/

    • I really don’t get the problem with Steph playing off the ball some.
      First, I will apply FB’s analogy of why Draymond shouldn’t start at PF, he’ll wear down. Am I the only one who frequently saw Steph tired at the end of games against good defenses? Second, did anybody have this problem when Jack would come in and have Klay and Steph on the wings? Third, playing Steph off the ball doesn’t keep the ball out of his hands, it is a different way to get the ball in his hands. To whit, fast break and a secondary action, 8 seconds, Steph on the wing. A baseline cut and pin down screen , 4 seconds. What are the options? Steph either gets the pass and is open for a shot. (Anybody have a problem with that?). Steph gets the ball and isn’t open for the shot. (Hey, look who has the ball with half the shot clock left.) Steph isn’t open for the pass in which case the person with the ball can run a dribble screen or euro-pitch to Steph in about 3 seconds, and there we have a shot for Steph or the ball in Steph’s hands. Everybody is tripping on this subject.

    • Get your words straight, WaB. A cynic is habitually and uncritically suspicious, specifically of human nature and motives. Comments here may be weighted and tend to sarcasm, but they are built on beliefs and expectations. We want to see brilliance, and have cause to think that is possible. They are also based on a great deal of enthusiasm for certain players on the team and their potential, on what we have seen in the past, though not often enough.

  30. Although Curry is a high turnover guy taking the ball out of his hands will make it worse as the Warriors don’t have other distributors capable of many assists. Looks like Warriors bent on finding out the hard way.

    • Bogut, Lee, Iguodala, Livingston, and Green are all high IQ, court aware, and proven passers capable of racking up assists. A system that allows them to utilize those skills can and should be effective.

  31. FB,

    I was away for a few days and missed your reply at #26. My response:

    First, you are mixing up your complaints. You are frustrated that the Dubs don’t have a PnR center. Right you are. You have previously expressed frustration that they don’t have enough 3 point shooting depth. Right again. So what system should the Dubs run for the players they do have? You’ve said yourself they can’t run the Spurs system. Right for the third time. A triangle should be fine for the skills of the players they do have not the players you wish they had.

    Second, I also explain in #37 how playing Curry off the ball some can save him so wear and tear perhaps allowing him to exert more influence on the game down the stretch. Also, how playing off the ball can just be a different way of getting the ball into his hands. Does anybody think the other players on this team are going to play keep away from Steph?

    Third, I think you are applying PnR roles to playing off the ball in the triangle. Rarely is anyone just spotting up in the triangle; they are running some kind of action with their teammates to get someone open.

    In fairness to those who think I might be too optimistic about the stated offensive plans, I’ll admit to being parched for any offensive approach that doesn’t involve low post isolation with players that can’t play that way. However, I do think the offensive plans make sense.

    • “I’ll admit to being parched for any offensive approach that doesn’t involve low post isolation”

      You do understand that most variations of the triangle begin with post isolation? That Kerr has expressed interest in using Andrew Bogut in the post of the triangle? That the Warriors will probably use Shaun Livingston extensively in the low post, as it’s what he’s best at?

      I’m also not sure you understand the way that the triangle gets players open — if it does get players open. It “worked” by isolating a superstar in the post — Jordan, Shaq, Kobe, Pau — who commanded a double team. That’s why it didn’t work — in fact failed miserably — for every other team that tried it (including the Lakers between Shaq and Pau).

      Do the Warriors have one single player who can command a double team in the post? No? Well then, Curry and Klay will struggle to get open in the Steve Kerr/John Paxon spot-up role.

      I’m not sure you really comprehend what’s about to happen if Kerr is serious about implementing the triangle on this team.

      On the other hand, I agree with you that the Warriors by their personnel moves this offseason have gotten further away from the style of basketball they should be playing. So far away, in fact, that a tipping point may have occurred.

      This might now be a team that is better off walking the ball up, running 23 seconds off the clock, and trying to win with defense. Stephen Curry has been Fat-Shaqed.

      • There are a couple of nuances to triangle theory that lead me to believe we might not wind up with your worst case scenario. First, there is a difference between low post isolation and passing the ball into the low post of a read and react offense like the Triangle. In the former, we had JO or HB in the post, the pass went in, and the perimeter players cleared out to the weak side. This made the double team harder but it also left no option for the post, they were going to shoot it one way or the other, usually a brick. In the triangle, the perimeter players are not clearing out. They are running cuts and screens to get open. If the post player can pass, they can still be effective.

        Second, it is a rule of read and react offenses that you take the shots you can make and don’t take the shots you can’t. It rewards players with a broader skill set because if there are more things they can do from a particular place on the floor, they can do them. If you have great post up players and they get the ball in the post then those are good shots. If they aren’t great post up players and they get the ball in the post they are supposed to look for the next set of options from the other players working to get open. You remember Shaquille, or MJ, or Kobe in the post because they had that skill set and took the shot. You don’t remember the others who simply got that post pass and continued to move the ball because they didn’t have that shot. It didn’t just die there, the offense is constantly looking for the player with the right skill in the right spot.

        And if the above means Bogut or Livingston, or whomever gets a shot or two more from places they can make them, that should ultimately create the small sliver of space that Steph needs to do his thing. Systems need discipline and patience which is why teams that run systems have fewer possessions per game even if they are otherwise playing fast. As long as the additional time is used to attack and probe for a good shot, it is a benefit.

        • In order to run a read and react system, there must be something to read. Getting the defense to move is a prerequisite. That’s what you read and react to.

          When you isolate a great player in the post, you get something to read. When they start their move, the whole defense reacts, with hedging and outright double teaming. That initiates the read and react movement. But when you put a mediocre threat in the post, the defense couldn’t care less. Let them do their worst, we’re staying put on our man. There’s nothing to read and react to. That’s why teams without superstars fall apart trying to run triangle.

          Bottom line, the Bulls and Lakers put their best players in the post of the triangle. Jordan, Shaq, Kobe, Gasol. This year’s New York Knicks will put Melo in the post.

          The Warriors? The Warriors by contrast will be putting their WORST players in the post of the triangle. (Bogut, Livingston, maybe Barnes, maybe Lee. Lee is far from the worst, but he’s so much better in pick and roll and high post action, that posting him up is a sin.)

          And moving their best player off the ball.

    • The good news is that the FO has finally committed itself to some kind of structured offensive scheme. It only took four years. We can thank Mark Jackson for getting them to see the obvious. Before, their attitude was that they had enough offensive players and they kept focusing on defensive—oneway—players to fill the roster and bigs who couldn’t score.

      And Kerr will be under the pressure of expectations: he will have to show results, and results, ultimately, are what will matter, not how they get them. He won’t be able to commit to a primary scheme such as whatever version of the triangle he envisions, which is murky, if for no other reason than it would take too long to develop. Nor does he have the experience to get the system up and running in time, so he’ll have to be flexible. But if he did commit, he’d also find he doesn’t have the players to run it. Hard to believe they don’t know that now, but of course won’t say it.

      He’s also mentioned several things not related to the triangle—fast breaks, pick and roll with Curry/Lee—all workable and promising. It sounds like he will experiment with many things and, hopefully, stick with what works best and build from there. And I’m assuming he’ll listen to Gentry, who is worth listening to. The key to success will be how much influence Gentry has and how long they keep him. He could help provide direction for years to come. Adams looks promising as well.

      The bad news is that the roster does not have the depth and versatility to run any full offense 48 minutes, not at the level we should expect. So it will be hard to run experiments and learn much that is worthwhile. Building a coherent team takes vision and time, time to practice, time to learn, time to acquire and develop the right players, yet in many ways the team is back to square one and is still staring at a lot of holes.

      One scenario is that the team experiments without getting definitive results, which is likely, and the FO shifts to something else in strategic thinking, only to start over once again.

      The worst case scenario is that Kerr commits himself to the full triangle as his gradual plan for the next years, only to find that it doesn’t work.

      More good news is that the FO might rethink the roster, their priorities when they draft and trade. And maybe, when they dump bad contracts and start dealing effectively, things can come together—

      —in another 4-5 years.

      Or maybe they will gut the roster and clog the cap with yet another “transcendent” deal.

  32. YouTired: I’m hardly as impressed as you are with the passing skills of the players you name. Bogut, Les, and Freen bave thrown the ball away far to much for my liking. Livingston is simply not an assist man. Curry is simply a deadly shooter with ball in his hands. Keep it there.

    The Warriors success depends on D. Green getting plenty of playing time, being successful, and Livingston being a tremendous defender on the perimeter. Even though Rush use to be great, actually think his signing may prove to be a bad one if he has not fully recovered from his injury. Hope I’m wrong.

    Also, if the Warrior offensive system is mainly the triangle the Warriors will have a hard time abandoning it after it proves to be a complete disaster and returning to the effective spread four.

    • Where have we seen this word “debridement” before? This is more than just turf toe. It’s arthritis.

      • cosmicballoon

        Where have we seen this word before? Are you talking about Bogut?

        I just did a little reading about this…it seems like debridement is removing dead tissue. It could be arthritis type stuff or it could be something relates to his leg surgeries. I can see a situation where part of his toe died while he was in a brace or cast for 6 to 12 months. I bet he’s been playing in pain since he came back.

        As for the Warriors, it might be time to fire the team doctor. He obviously cleared both guys so they could sign massive contracts. I wonder what his Rush report looked like.

        • From Monte Pool today —

          Bogut has healed more slowly than anticipated. Any loss of upper body muscle is directly related to the lack of weight training in the wake of breaking a rib. He’s supposed to be ready for camp next month, but getting back to full strength could take another month or more.

  33. Out a minimum 4-6 weeks. My guess is 3-4 months. So much for “solving” the backup point guard problem.

  34. Has it already been mentioned that Kuzmic is out 4 weeks from Aug. 1 withe a stress reaction in his leg?

  35. One result of Livingston’s surgery is that the team may be forced to put Craft on the roster for insurance. What other option will they find at this stage that they can afford? Which means they will have two roster slots filled with PGs who will not be able to step in during the season and have no future with the Warriors or the NBA. They will also have to start searching for another PG next season on limited funds who, even if he has potential, will be years off from being able to step up.

    The details matter.

    • At this point, wouldn’t be surprised if they try to bring back JoCraw on a vet min. Is there anybody else out there?

      • Barbosa looked pretty good last night. He could be a good piece coming off the bench. Not sure what type of salary he would ask for, but I like his game over Jordan Crawfords.

    • Curry is in great shape. Hopefully he doesn’t have a FIBA hangover when the regular season starts. I remember a few years ago after 2010 thinking that many of the players who had played in FIBA that year had slow starts. Could have just been coincidence though.

  36. cosmicballoon

    Kirk promoted to Assistant GM in Golden State. The writing is on the wall for Meyers.

    http://www.seadubscentral.com/2014/08/17/kirk-lacob-returning-santa-cruz-warriors/

  37. Prepare to watch the dominoes fall next season. Livingston may not be able to start the season. At the very least he will be late conditioning and practicing with the team, this with a new coach who won’t have yet settled on a scheme and is learning himself. So the starters will be stretched early and at best will be worn as they enter the middle of the meat grinder of the schedule. After that, it’s a matter of when Livingston can come back and play full strength.

    Or how much, how often.

    Or if.

    And we saw what will happen last season. Douglas was awfully raw as a PG and was injured himself. Nedovic, of course, couldn’t step up. So they fell back on the plan to share running the offense more through Iguodala and Klay—and by having Curry play heavy minutes, the only solution that worked well. All played in the 40 minute range early season, except for the blowouts when they could rest and watch the subs blow leads.

    Whether Iguodala was overplayed or not, he got injured early, was brought back too soon, and really wasn’t the same the rest of the season. There’s every reason to think he won’t be able to play the heavy minutes now with what must be lingering injuries.

    As Barnes can neither create for himself or others, he presented a special problem. He can only produce when surrounded by a strong supporting cast. With the subs, he was useless. But it was Barnes who had to step up when Iguodala went down, and of course he couldn’t and didn’t. So he will require extending starter minutes, unless Rush can return to form. (Remember our debate a few years ago when Barnes got the nod over Rush with the starters?)

    So was there any wonder they faltered midseason, supposedly Lacob’s nail in the Jackson coffin?

    Kerr triangle or Jackson isos or any other system, I don’t think it makes much difference because neither have or had much to work with, not without capable playmakers and handlers on the floor. Staggering the starters still means making them play heavy minutes.

    Options will also be lost. Curry will necessarily have to lead point in closeouts, when he will be fatigued, as we saw last season. Getting him off the ball in spots not only frees him up for shots and gives him some momentary rest but also throws the defense off. I’m curious what a three guard set of Curry, Klay, and Livingston might do, if they find a place to run small.

    Side thought: are there no screens in the triangle?

    They will win games, of course, but enough to push them to the next level? What kind of shape will they be in come playoffs?

    Note that the Love/Martin trade would not have tipped the scales, as they would still have had the same problem. Whatever gain they may have had from Love’s offense would be offset by the loss in production from Martin and defense from both, and Martin would have been much less effective in filling in as Klay did last season when he played with the subs.

    Had they not made the trade but instead explored pressing needs and gone after a reliable and healthy PG and a workable solution at 3 to replace Barnes it would have been a different story.

    • Basically the issue is the half-court offense. The Warriors only hope really is to get out and run and push the ball up the floor. They have players capable of doing that. It’s once the defense gets set in the halfcourt that they (meaning everybody other than Curry) have issues generating offense.

      Methinks Draymond is going to have to be relied upon much more to be a playmaker and ball handler on this team. That’s just how it’s shaping up.

  38. The Assistant General Manager of the Spurs, Scott Layden:

    “The San Antonio Spurs today [in 2012] announced that Scott Layden has been named the team’s assistant general manager. Layden brings over 25 years of experience in the NBA to the Spurs front office.”

    Partial resume:

    “Layden began his NBA career as an administrative assistant and scout with the Jazz in 1981. In February of 1982 he was elevated to assistant coach, where he remained until being named the Jazz’s director of player personnel in 1989. He was named director of basketball operations in 1992, before being promoted to vice president in September of 1996.

    “From 1992 through 1999, Layden was primarily responsible for all player personnel, draft and trade decisions. During his tenure as Utah’s primary architect, the Jazz recorded five straight 50+ win seasons (including three 60+ win campaigns), two Midwest Division titles (1996-97 and 1997-98) and back-to-back Western Conference Championships in 1997 and 1998. Layden was runner-up (to the Lakers’ Jerry West) for The Sporting News NBA Executive of the Year award in 1994-95, a season in which the Jazz went 60-22.”

    http://www.nba.com/spurs/news/120905_scott_layden_named_assistant_general_manager

    Cf. KL.

  39. Couldn’t disagree with you more about the Love-Martin got Lee-Thompson. You fail to mention that Love would have provided the Warrior with a lot of made three’s while Lee provides none. And he took more shots than Lee and has a much higher FG percentage. And the myth of Thompson being a good defender was once again exposed last night as Brazil perimeter players repeatedly blew by him.

    Love and Curry would have set a new course that would have given Warriors an opportunity real contenders for years to come. They would have been projected much higher than finishing as the seventh seed in the Western Conference as this roster is.

    • I grant increased offense from Love. But factor in an offensive drop off from Klay to Martin, plus another in defense. Whether Love makes Curry better is debatable if not doubtful.

      But you miss my main argument. Even if the trade were made, they would be bench weak and the starters would be stretched. You have to look at the whole 48 minutes, 82 games a season. And they aren’t equipped either way. Had they been able to focus on the bench however, instead of losing time and opportunities in the futile Love trade, they would have been in much better shape.

    • Not keeping up with the blazing quick and fast Barbosa is not an indicator of a poor defender.

      Did Barbosa convert on any of those blow-bys or dish an assist? Was Klay playing team defense?

  40. Given Nate Duncan’s tweets shown above, what was the impression of the board on Klay’s play, if anyone saw the game?

    From what Duncan tweets, Klay ought to shoot the 3 without hesitation and avoid dribbling, posting up, or taking long 2’s.

    And I read elsewhere Curry was back to unnecessarily fancy passes on occasion and reaching in defense.

    I hope Adams and Gentry get on these guys and actually coach them and to heck with their egos.

  41. Rgg: You miss my argument which is that the Warriors would have had more potential going forward with Love. I agree the problem with the bench would still be a problem. Offensively, Thompson and Martin are virtually a wash. More importantly, Love and Martin are way better offensively than Lee and Thompson. I concede that neither Thompson nor Martin are impact players and that is why I would have been pleased to see him leave. If he is resigned we will all laugh at the size of his contract except for Warrior diehard fans.

    • Most, the Love trade is a moot point. One insider report has it that Love would not commit to the Warriors, which makes a lot of sense. He has no good reason to do so and will see plenty of better offers when his contract expires.

  42. I’ve posted before about how brilliant a writer and critic Kareem Abdul Jabbar has become. Here’s his piece on Ferguson:

    http://time.com/3132635/ferguson-coming-race-war-class-warfare/

    • once again, thanks guv’nor. unfortunately K A-J is among a very select few successful pro athletes who have chosen to use their name and fame to redirect public consciousness positively for peace and justice. the m.gaye songs from “what’s going on” including the one quoted gave me hopes at the time that mainstream pop music might be channelled in a similar fashion, but cocaine was also a huge part of the inner city blues and gaye’s rapid decline after his masterpiece.

      speaking only from my personal experience as part of the nation of college students who protested that war, the victims at Jackson St. were just as much in our minds as those at Kent St. — the national media of course was a different story.

    • Wow, great stuff, FB. Thanks for posting.

      @Moto-san: I’m encouraged that in the past year or so LeBron seems to be using his bully pulpit to speak out about socio-political issues (Trayvon Martin and Donald Sterling, e.g.), at least much more so than I can ever remember, say, Jordan or Shaq or Kobe doing. Obviously he’s no Kareem (yet?), but here’s hoping that in the coming years he can keep using his high profile to raise consciousness as well as sell shoes and Samsungs.

  43. another chapter has begun in the annals of the lacob dynasty — west’s son jonnie is taking on g.m. duties for the s.cruz team, with the younger lacob becoming assistant g.m. in oaktown full time instead of splitting his attentions.

    • correction, from re-reading the article on seadubscentral.com, although the s.cruz team g.m. left to work for a rival organization, jonnie west is not replacing him, but will work as associate g.m., the younger lacob’s position there.

    • Noted above, and cf the Ass’t GM of the Spurs @48. It is impossible to take this organization seriously.

      • cosmicballoon

        The Lacobs treat this team as a family business, even though few in the family actually have experience in the business. Ridiculous.

        • Not just lack of experience but lack of knowledge, and the two are related. The later comes from the former. It’s hard to imagine Kirk ever learning what he needs to know to make good decisions, but at the very least it will take years. The price of bad management is mistakes, and mistakes can linger for years.

  44. The Warriors would not have offered Lee and Thompson without Love agreeing to sign long term contract. When Warriors objected to was not including a first round pick. When James decided to join Cavaliers and no deal having been reached Love probably decided to only sign a long term contract with the Cavaliers. Hopefully in time the whole story will be told. In my judgment by the Warriors hesitating they lost Love any hope of improving the roster anytime soon.

  45. Lookin’ ahead!

    For the 2016-17 season, the Warriors have commitments to:

    Iguoldala $11m
    Livingston $6m
    Bogut $11m
    Curry $12m

    Totaling $40m on the cap. Plus a team option on Nedovic, which I assume they’ll let go the previous season. And that’s it. The slate is blank after that year.

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/contracts/GSW.html

    I’m assuming they’ll extend Green and Thompson and will be optimistic that Ezeli pans out and they keep him as well as backup center. A very conservative estimate for their salaries is $24m.

    So they’ll have taken up $64m of the cap space and won’t have much more to play with, whatever the cap will be at that time.

    Anyone feel good about that team and its chances? Or the future?

    Notes:

    1. Given their years in the NBA, 12+ each, and questions about their health, it’s hard to imagine Iguodala, Livingston, and Bogut being able to contribute much well—or at times at all that season. Maybe Iguodala rejuvenates—he doesn’t have a history of injury.

    2. Iguodala, Bogut, and Livingston will have to be replaced the next season, two of them key starters, an expensive center and a 3 who won’t be cheap.

    3. There is no one else on the current roster who might be developing now who could fill in for them or replace them when they leave. (Except Green at 3?)

    4. They will not have a scoring front court. Nor will there be a power forward, a very expensive player, but they’ll have to somehow find someone. I’m assuming Lee will be let go with his $15m contract, unless maybe he proves healthy and takes a smaller contract, unlikely.

    5. There is no one on the current roster who might develop into a workable 4. (Green cannot play heavy minutes at 4. He’s too small and may not be a consistent scorer.)

    6. There is no one on the current roster who might prove to be valuable backups at any position, other than Green and Ezeli.

    7. Because of a tight cap and limited draft picks, it will be hard, if not impossible, to improve this roster, or the roster the previous season, or the future roster, unless:

    a. They trade a valuable player—only Green or Thompson available. I assume Curry is protected.

    b. They traded Lee’s contract as an expiring the season before, freeing up those bucks for someone else, unlikely at $15m.

    c. They trade Iguodala, Bogut, or Livingston as expirings, also unlikely given their wear and the size of their contracts.

    8. There is no one else on the current roster who will develop and at least have trade value then or the year previous for any kind of midrange deal.

    9. The situation is not much different 2015-16.

    10. They will have Kerr, and whatever he’s learned in two years. It’s not certain they’ll have Gentry or Adams. (Do they have two year contracts? Or they may leave if a HC or better position opens up.)

    11. They will have the brain trust of Joe Lacob, Kirk Lacob, and I’m guessing still Meyers, whatever they’ve learned in those two years.

    Conclusion:

    Bye, bye Curry. Why on earth would he stay?

    • “So they’ll have taken up $64m of the cap space and won’t have much more to play with, whatever the cap will be at that time.”

      The cap will very likely be $80+M by then given the new tv deal.

      • $16m won’t go very far filling in all those gaps. It won’t be a team with a future, with or without Curry.

        And Curry should be able to draw big bucks at a lot of places.

    • “Conclusion:

      Bye, bye Curry. Why on earth would he stay?”

      Like most players in the NBA, he would stay because he stands to make the most money here.

      The real question (and a hard one) is do you want to give Curry a 5-year max deal that will span from age 29-34?

      • 5 years = 29-33

        Ectomorphs and elite shooters — as opposed to say, hulks and speedsters — tend to age pretty well in the NBA. Assuming Curry ages remotely similarly to Nash or Ray Allen (possibly his two closest comps as players) I don’t see why a max deal from ages 29-34 is a hard question at all.

        • We’ll see. I’m skeptical he can handle this kind of scoring load into his 30’s.

          It’s not a given. Nash was never a 20+ PPG scorer.

          • warriorsablaze

            I don’t see why… his game is built on finesse and an elite shooting skill, not athleticism. He may scale back a bit, but I bet he’ll be a ~20ppg scorer all the way up until his last few years as a Ray Allen-type role player well into his 30’s.

          • The question is will he be worthy of a max deal in his early 30’s? He’s entering his prime now. For most players that doesn’t last more than a few seasons. Tony Parker has the luxury of only playing 32 mpg (under 30 last season at age 31), while Curry might be forced to play upwards of 40 mpg the next few seasons. And we haven’t even mentioned his injury history yet.

    • the lacobites need to focus on getting into the next tier, legit vs. quasi contention. they’ve averaged 4.5 post season wins since they re-entered relevance ; if they want curry to remain interested in staying for another contract, they need to reach the ten or eleven marker within the next three seasons. the fans can talk about favorable seedings or which teams the injury gods visit, but teams that come within a handful of wins from the trophy don’t cite excuses.

      • I don’t see how they can maintain the tier they’re in much longer, much less move one above it.

        • Somehow turn Bogut into Marc Gasol?

          • Nice thought.

            Of course it wouldn’t be easy for the Ws to a) move big bad contracts or b) entice a winner to play for a newb coach, but

            Stranger things have happened, such as the Pau Gasol-to-Lakers deal, once upon a time. Or the combination of deals that turned Biedrins/Jefferson into Iggy – that was a surprise.

            In general, though, 90+% of NBA trades/acquisitions involve real pain. The Love deal wouldn’t happen without sacrificing Thompson, for example. A pile of losers does not add up to a single winner.

        • Saying that Biedrins and Jefferson landed the Warriors Iggy is like saying the ink in the pen he signed the contracts with landed Steve Ballmer the Clippers.

          • I didn’t say Biedrins/Jefferson “landed” Iggy. Where do you imagine you read that?

            I understand they have remedial reading classes for your condition, Feltie.

  46. rgg: think you’re right on that Warriors has little room to improve roster over next few years and to take team to next level. Fime to dump salaries and trade, starting with Bogut. Warriors will probably wait till the end of the year to do so as management one step behind.

    I suspect Ferguson police left M. Brown!s body in street for four hours and had his body then thrown in back of van to give them time to decide how to present his wounds as they did not want EMS ambulance personnel viewing his body at scene. One can begin to understand why multiple autopsies being conducted. Wouldn’t be surprised of his body was altered prior to first autopsy. Can’t believe there has not been an arrest given eyewitness testimony that he hands raised and was trying to tell police he was unarmed when shot multiple times head. The police have put their own men at risk each night by failing to do so.

    • It’s why I wasn’t excited about the Love deal, not that he wouldn’t have been a great addition. The team is too weak down the roster and has almost no resources to change that for him to make that much difference. Plus his new contract and Martin’s and the lost draft pick would have hobbled them more. The Warriors simply aren’t in a position to make a big deal and have it count.

      I don’t see how they can unload the expensive contracts except as expirings, but it’s highly unlikely under the new CBA teams will do that now. They won’t have great trade value in themselves.

      The team has banked its success now on aging, ailing vets, Iguodala, Bogut, and to a lesser extent Livingston. The cost is not just their salaries, but also their limitations and how those tax the rest of the team, and in the players not sought instead, younger and more versatile, who might better complement the others and who might be developing with the team now and providing a future. (I still think that Iguodala, if he returns to health, is a valuable piece.)

      Given all the reasons they won’t be able to improve the next few years, it’s not unthinkable Curry leaves and the team goes into tank mode, with Lacob & Son and Myers at the helm.

    • Frank amigo, you don’t sound like you have much personal experience in the kind of environment of north St.Louis county. the police only needed their initial story that two black youths, the deceased obviously quite large, first assaulted the officer and possibly tried to take his weapon from him. that particular department would have neither the personnel or the motivation to over-think their mess.

  47. Moto: Based on reports of eyewitnesses and the account attributed to Wilson, the police officer involved in shooting, it appears eyewitnesses are going to say that Brown ran from police car, stopped, turned in place, raised his hands, and that policeman heading toward Brown when he shot twice in head.

    Policeman apparently going to say that Brown bull rushed him after turning and he shot him from a few feet away even though he did not display any weapon.

    Will be interesting to see if various autopsies differ. Case may well turn on eyewitness testimony. Seems independent witness statements that appear to be consistent and at odds with policeman’s statement. And they provided their respective statements without knowing policeman’s version.

    • understood, what has come out from witnesses after the initial report. you were speculating that the policia started more involved shenanigans from the beginning, beyond their superficial response in the immediate aftermath. have you spent much time in an area where police are accustomed to following a regular routine in re. to who they’ve already consigned to a ‘criminal/inclined to criminal behaviour class’. that ferguson police unit does not resemble what you’ve seen on the t.v. shows or movies with detectives that have untraceable handguns they plant on their victims, or they donkey around with the corpse which is what you described. they’re not as competent or thoughtful in attempting a coverup as you seemed to think in your speculation — which is why there will probably be a ruling against the officer, to what degree remains to be seen.

  48. I was suggesting that the police may have left Brown’s body in the street for fours because they were playing for time as to how they were going to present his shooting not that they were actually going to alter his body although performing three autopsies does raise suspicions.

    There is conflict between eyewitnesses and the policeman as to whether Brown had raised his hands and surrendered when shot compared to the policeman saying he was bull rushed when he be shy him twice on the head.

    I believe the autopsies say the 6’4″ Brown was struck by one bullet that entered the top of his head, which would be consistent with eyewitnesses may be saying that one of the bullets struck Brown when he was on his knees and the policeman’s saying that Brown was bull rushing him in a downward position when one of the shots struck him in the head.

    There are also major conflicts between eyewitnesses and the policeman when Brown was at the car as to whether reached for the policeman’s gun prior to the policeman’s gun being discharged one time.

    • if the shooting victim is wounded and alive they get emergency services a.s.a.p. (barring intentional neglect with intent to do harm of course) and moved, but with a dead body they’re supposed to leave it alone in situ for investigators/forensics. that level of personnel will not be close by in a place like ferguson — they probably rely on the county, a very dispersed area surrounding St.Louis city and far larger.

      of course there are many ways the police can rationalize discharging multiple shots. hand guns in law enforcement have gotten ever more powerful over time to increase ‘stopping power’ ; the .38 special originally was adopted to give them a weapon capable of shooting into buildings or cars, and now only economy grade security guards use it. [many military and police now use a .40 round, a bit bigger than the 9 mm often used by the outlaws and formerly the standard u.s.army handgun (Beretta) cartridge.] though officers are trained to aim at the center of the largest body mass, the torso, they’re also trained not to assume a handgun will always stop a large, vigourous target.

  49. It should be noted that’s its not clear to me from eyewitnesses statements whether Brown turned with his arms up and was standing still or was walking back toward police car when shot in head. One witness said he was heading back toward police car. This witness also saying some of the shots missed Brown.

  50. In Ferguson, as in Watts and Newark decades ago, as in the Rodney King riots, we’re not going to get clearcut single cases of justice or noble martyrs. It’s the magnitude of the reaction and what lies beneath it that most needs attention:

    “While the economic downturns of the last decade-and-a-half have taken their toll on the median income of all races and ethnic groups, blacks have been the hardest hit. By 2012, black median household income had fallen to 58.4 percent of white income, almost back to where it was in 1967 — 7.9 points below its level in 1999.

    “Today, however, political and policy-making stasis driven by gridlock — despite a momentary concordance between left and right on this particular shooting — insures that we will undertake no comparable initiatives to reverse or even stem the trends that have put black Americans at an increasing disadvantage in relation to whites — a situation that plays no small part in fueling the rage currently on display in Ferguson.”

    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/20/opinion/thomas-edsall-ferguson-watts-and-a-dream-deferred.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=c-column-top-span-region&region=c-column-top-span-region&WT.nav=c-column-top-span-region&_r=0

    • If you’re looking for causes of the growing disparity and reactions to it, the answer is always all of the above. Education is one significant factor, and the problem here is structurally deep, its effects profound.

      More and more, if you’re in a lower income environment, odds are heavy you’ll receive an inferior education for a variety of reasons, of which inadequate funding is only one. You’ll be less prepared for the college degree that has become a standard requirement for almost any job of consequence now and may well abandon that route.

      But even if you do succeed, or you’re an average youth and follow an average middle class path into an average school, that degree is rewarding fewer students less and less. The gap between selective schools and the rest has grown larger as well in terms of how well those degrees reward students when they graduate with solid jobs and salaries.

      “We like to view higher education as the ‘great equalizer’ that leads to social mobility. But selective colleges have long been accused of perpetuating class divides, rather than blurring them.”

      http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/05/why-american-colleges-are-becoming-a-force-for-inequality/275923/

      (There’s a ton of literature on the subject. I just picked this one on the fly.)

  51. The NYT today’s reporting of mostly unnamed eyewitness accounts is pathetic. As the reporters give no indication of how far the policeman was from M.Brown after he turned and raised his hands when he was shot, and more importantly did not solicit from any eyewitness whether they had seen the order and where the two shots that struck him in the head.

    It did say the policeman did shoot at M. Brown as he was chasing ‘. Brown and that there was a dispute whether M. Brown after he turned with his hands up moved in the direction of the policeman before being shot.

  52. Season forecast:

    There should be two ways to measure a team’s projected success, both the full potential of the squad and the probabilities they can reach that potential.

    In so many ways, this in an incrementally better team. Ezeli is back and should shore up the center spot. Green is only improving and shows no signs of letting up. Speights, who did make good contributions, should be in better shape and better exploited by Kerr & Co. (I want to see how Gentry works with Speights.) Livingston is a definite upgrade at PG. If Rush returns to some semblance of previous form, he will be a good addition. Barnes, sensibly used, only has to raise his game to mediocre levels to justify his minutes and not drag down the team. The coaching staff is deeper and more experienced, at least in the assistants. Kerr will only have to make sensible choices to get wins. I don’t think he’ll ram the triangle down their throats, trying to make it work and sacrifice games in the process.

    50 wins, +/– 3, at full potential

    Most teams have made upgrades, and I’m guessing wins and rankings will be tighter next season in the west. And that should be good enough for a #6 to # 8 spot. If they play to full potential and get good breaks all the way, which is rare, they might even do better. But the roster is not strong and deep enough to expect more.

    But what are the odds they’ll reach their potential next season? I give them 50-60%, which will near the bottom among contenders.

    You only have to think about Livingston missing training camp and the uncertainty when or if he can perform at full level, and consider how much not having an adequate backup PG will hurt them. Then consider how large the ifs are about Ezeli, with only one year experience and maybe health issues, and about Barnes and Rush. Add to that the health questions about Lee, Bogut, and Iguodala. These are the higher probabilities, and the less likely but possible risks haven’t been factored in, such as injuries to other players, who do not have adequate backups.

    Still, they could make the playoffs, but it will mean heavy minutes on the starters during the regular season. But what kind of shape will they be in when they get there? There should be a way to measure a team’s potential at the end as well. Fatigue will be a certainty, a diminished Igoudala a likelihood. I don’t give good odds that both Lee and Bogut will be able to suit up, which hasn’t happened yet. First round exit is likely, second round exit a near certainty.

    Bleacher Report tells us the Warrior window is closing:

    http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2169966-is-it-do-or-die-for-the-golden-state-warriors-in-2014-15

    And I voiced my skepticism about the possibilities after that.

    Lacob tells us he is committed to a championship. This team is not close to that potential, never has been, and should never have made that the goal. The supposedly big, expensive deals it made, Bogut and Iguodala, and all they precluded, both in cap hits and other deals not made, didn’t bring them close, and in fact hurt their chances.

    However

    Sensible moves made years ago and continued—shoring up the roster, developing players who might contribute later, bringing experience and vision to the coaching staff and FO, managing the cap sanely so they can make a midseason adjustment—could have produced a team that could have been in better shape and surprised us all in the previous and future playoffs with a good run. It wouldn’t have taken much at all.

    And the team would have a future.

    • B/R articles. Ugh.

      “Beyond its stellar starting five, Golden State can look forward to a much-improved bench led by Barnes, Draymond Green, Marreese Speights and, fresh off a breakout year with the Brooklyn Nets, point guard Shaun Livingston.”

      So this guy is telling me that the the bench is “much improved” because it brings back 3 of the same guys and adds Shaun Livingston (who, btw, is now recovering from surgery)? Not sure what his definition of “much” is.

    • the fans and pundits shouldn’t bother with over-thinking the roster and coaching mess, particularly in the absence of evidence from games that count. but more so because of the guess-and-patch manner the owner and his committee cobbled together everything — surely, they are far from certain how it will work out, but must commit to exhibiting optimism, and sell, sell, sell. their wins at season’s end won’t be lacob’s principal concern, but sold out dates with his increased ticket prices, nor their seeding in the playoffs, but rather how many home playoff dates they can eke out to keep up their rates. apparently the team has already reached a high mark in scheduled national broadcasts this season — success in increasing the brand visibility before any games are played.

      • I think I could make my peace with your interpretation of Lacob towards the end, as it’s as much as we can expect of any owner. The problem is he truly believes he can bring success and has taken an active role in shaping the team, for the worse, instead of letting experienced managers take over the mundane business of doing what they know best—building and running a team. And those guys, if he had them, could easily have built a better team to fill the seats and boost sales for his new mecca.

        • the personality of the owner is always a big factor. lacob loves racing high performance sports cars. he knows most owners end up watching somebody else hoist the trophy, but win/place/show, he wants the satisfaction from being in the driver’s seat.

  53. As said in stock market trading, the risk is to the down side, especially due to health.

  54. Ric Bucher is right on. Of course, Lee and Thompson are upset having been placed on the trading block by the Warriors.

    More revealing, is that the Warriors if they consummated the trade with the Wolves and Orlando, would’ve had Love, Martin, Affalo, and a first round pick this year. And no Lee, Thompson, nor Barnes nor a first round pick next year. I’m sick. What could have been.

    • Klay should not be upset about possibly being traded for one of the best players in the NBA. My guess is he was pissed that he would have had to live in Minnesota. He’ll get over it.

    • I think before LeBron, the Wolves would not do the deal with the Warriors because the Wolves knew Thompson would not sign long-term with them. Thompson don’t want to live in Minn and could make the same money anywhere else on a new contract as a free agent.

      After LeBron, the Wolves could accept Wiggins, because Wiggins is a ticket seller and can be locked-up in a rookie deal.

      • The idea that Thompson wouldn’t sign long-term with them is silliness. Very few players would take the QO when they have a max offer on the table.

    • We only know Love was interested in the Warriors in principle, but don’t know the exact terms of what he might have accepted or what commitment he might have made. If he gave it any thought, he would have realized he’d have to carry a heavy load with a team that had little depth for the next three years, may not have gotten the exposure he wanted, say, in the playoffs, and may have reconsidered. The Warriors don’t have the resources to fill out the team and won’t for the next years.

      I.e., the Love trade is just too speculative to give much thought.

      I do concede, however, that had they landed him, he would have provided a key player along with Curry that would have provided a good core for the future several years from now. If he stayed.

  55. felt-guv, re. your comment on the young to Min trade, the package that Phi gets probably gives them more options either to trade the players again later, or let their contracts expire in June, not really the same as barnes and a first round pick. it’s also likely that Min’s pick will be more valuable than GS’s. young’s contract would also put them into lux tax penalty, forcing them to make another deal before the accounting cut off. they committed to staying under the tax line with the type of exception applied to the livingston signing.

    • If Min’s pick is the Heats for 2015 as speculated then I think the Warriors’ will likely be better.

      Agree with the rest. Warriors are hopelessly capped out.

      • I can’t believe you of all people believe in the salary cap fairy. The Warriors are only as “capped out” as they choose to be.

        • my reference to the exception exercised to sign livingston made it clear that the restriction on their salary expenditures is self imposed. lacob made his choice in re. to the lux tax clear both this summer and last. if he doesn’t want NN’s rookie contract affecting his budget past next June, the player’s option will have to be declined by Nov. if they’re concerned about a budget squeeze with two of their main rotation guys to re-sign, we might see them cut their losses and admit a mistake with NN.

          • You know this better than the rest of us, moto, but aren’t there some pretty tight restrictions now about what they can and cannot do? A variety of moves have put them under a hard cap. And I believe their exceptions have expired, tightening the noose more.

          • rgg, it was trade exceptions from last summer’s deals that expired, which only apply to the restrictions of outgoing and incoming contract values in trades. whatever the contracts the team has on its roster after a trade still count against the cap. the other type of exception they lost eligibility for was a bi-annual exception (for teams over the soft cap), because they exercised it last summer.

            most teams choose to be over the soft cap, but under the lux tax limit. that is where mid-level exceptions apply.(‘mid’ referring to the middle range between the soft cap and lux tax line). if teams know they’re going into the lux tax, they get a different exception from the teams like GS who commit to a hard cap under the lux tax line.

            at this point the lacobites like most of their peers are counting on a hike in the cap next July, followed by bigger ones to come as the revenues from the next media deal affect hoops-related income specified in the c.b.a.

  56. What matters is the offensive rebounding differential in a particular game. The article you cite does not deal with that issue.

    Rgg, it’s regrettable that you concentrate on obtaining Love would not effect our bench and not that Love was the best guy by far in the proposed deal and that the Warriors starting unit would have been much stronger with both Love and Martin in starting line-up rather than Lee and and Thompson. And if the Warriors had done the deal for Afflalo that would have had Love and Afflalo, and the bench would have been stronger with both Martin and a first round pick obtained fromOrlando.

    • Since I had no influence on the deal, I’m not going to lose sleep on this one or give it much more thought. A deal isn’t certain until it’s signed. And we don’t get definitive info, much of which is cloudy or contradictory. One report says Love wouldn’t have committed. It’s not at all clear the deal would have happened, and I’m skeptical it was ever solid.

  57. Klay Thompson speaks:

    http://blogs.mercurynews.com/thompson/2014/08/23/klay-thompson-im-looking-take-huge-leap/

    Note him saying he can guard 1-4 on International level. Something I’ve been saying since he came into the league.

    Note him saying that he played at 220 last year. His natural position is SF, something that will become more and more clear as he ages.

    Note him saying he’s going to take a huge leap this season. Given what I saw in the second half last year, I believe him.

    He’s an Allstar caliber player, whose stats and development have been hurt by the fact that he’s the third option on the Warriors, and the fact that they need him to chase point guards.

    • “Note him saying he can guard 1-4 on International level. Something I’ve been saying since he came into the league.”

      Do we care whether he can guard 1-4 in FIBA? Do you think he could guard David Lee in the NBA?

      Anyway, I like Klay. He still can’t create shots for himself, though, so I don’t see him being able to take over games the way a true #1 option does.

      BTW, why is nobody talking about the tweets that Diamond Leung put out yesterday?

      “Mychal Thompson on Klay: “He was put on the table by the owner and the general manager. Jerry West and Steve Kerr pulled him off the deal.””

      “Mychal Thompson thought Warriors would get Kevin Love. “I really thought Lacob the owner was just going to veto everybody’s opinion.”

      • I think Klay is capable of guarding many of the lesser or second-string PFs in the game for short minutes. And some of the not-so-lesser. If Stephen Jackson was capable of making Dirk Nowitzki’s life miserable, Klay should be capable of making it tough. He can certainly guard players like Chandler Parsons, and most other stretch fours as well.

        When the Warriors put a unit of Lee, Green, Klay, Iggy and Curry on the floor, Green Klay and Iggy can switch every position. It makes that unit tremendously versatile, and surprisingly effective defensively, as i believe has been reflected in its DRating.

        As for Leung’s quotes, aren’t they just further confirmation of what’s been said previously, both here and elsewhere?

  58. http://www.csnbayarea.com/warriors/love-traded-cavaliers-joins-lebron

    “The Cavs and Timberwolves had discussed a trade involving Love for months, long before James decided to end his magnificent run with the Heat and come back home to Ohio. The deal dragged through the summer, first because of Cleveland’s unwillingness to include Wiggins, and then due to a rarely used league rule that prohibited it from being completed until 30 days after Wiggins signed his rookie contract.”

  59. Good coaches who have slashers and inside scorers go after D. Lee when he’s playing center and make mincemeat of the Warriors. However against teams that don’t attack D.lee, the Warriors fail better. D. Lee playing center in the playoffs is a recipe’ for disaster and losses.

    • “D. Lee playing center in the playoffs is a recipe’ for disaster and losses.”

      Didn’t they just take the (heavily favored) Clippers to 7 with Lee playing center?

  60. A note on the Barnes-Afflalo trade rumor: Since the two salaries are so far apart (Barnes $3M, Afflalo $7.5M), that deal was probably discussed ONLY as part of a 3-team Kevin Love trade, with MIN sending either Barea or Mbah a Moute (both conveniently making $4.5M) to Orlando to make the numbers work.

    I’m guessing it was a GS counteroffer to MIN wanting Lee, Barnes, & Klay for Love/Kevin Martin — it would give the W’s a better SG than the awful KMart to replace Klay, while the Wolves would still be able to unload an extra contract (though not KMart).

    But it probably didn’t happen because MIN wanted *both* Klay and Barnes in a trade for Love (as reported by both Woj at Yahoo and T’Wolves beat writer Jerry Zgoda before the draft), and diverting Barnes to ORL for a better SG than KMart was incompatible with that desire.

    • Orlando was under the cap so the transaction could have been done in two parts. Afflalo for the Dub’s TPE and Barnes for the pick. No third team necessary.

      • Good point; I forgot about the TPE as well. But I think the latter two paragraphs in my comment remain true — GS wasn’t interested in trading for a $7.5M backup wing; they only would have made the trade if Klay went north in a deal for Love. And since MIN apparently wanted both Klay & Barnes if they traded Love to GS (just as they’re boasting now about the multiple young players they got from the Cavs), the Orlando side deal couldn’t happen.

        • Not only that but it was speculated by some and partially confirmed by Myers that they had a plan for the TPE involving a power forward that got delayed by the Lebron James drama until the TPE expired and the opportunity was lost. The Dubs simply had other plans.

    • I’m jealous. How do you embed html links in comments? Links get unwieldy.

      • I am trained in black arts that should not be shared with mortals.

        In addition, I know how to use the and tags.

        • Aw, crap, the site outsmarted me (even though I tried to defeat its lack of preview capabilities).

          Anyway use (a href=”link here”)*words describing link*(/a) to embed links. For example: (a href=”https://twitter.com/diamond83/status/481098321855930369″)Woj at Yahoo(/a)

          But use angle brackets instead of parentheses. (And now we’ll see if the site presents this as I intended.)

  61. felt-guv, you were obviously funnin’ on the northern calif narcissists (probably the statistical leader in personality disorders in our region, narcissism) about wine prices, but, Napa red wine has not benefitted from climate change and its own popularity/inflation (in both commodity and land prices). forced to choose, for me it would be the first wine region to completely abstain from. most of the area residents are relieved the injuries and damages weren’t far worse — part of the problem is the huge premiums insurers have set on earthquake damage policies.

    • Totally agree with you Moto, and yes I was attempting a lame joke. I drink a lot of 2 buck chuck lately, but when spending up greatly prefer Oregon Pinots, Santa Cruz mountain Zins and the Russian River valley. Avoid Napa like plague.

      Very glad the damage and injuries weren’t worse, despite my callous joking…

      • hope you are not serious about the $2. wine. if your home water disaster set you back that far, we should meet in the city for dinner with the wine (from our library) on me.

        • Deadly serious. Barefoot Cellars Pinot Grigio over ice, great for hot August days…

          Wine from your library sounds good though (what’s a wine library?)

          • library is a more accurate description of the contents than wine collection, because most wine collections have substantial amounts of specific collector’s wines. libraries have a sprinkling of multi-volume sets, but variety and diversity make them interesting. have tried to educate my wine palate and understanding of wine geography on a modest budget, so the library in its present state is very heterogenous, will evolve into being more concentrated into the favorites over time through attrition and strict selectivity on replacement. expected life expectancy becomes a factor with the nice stuff of course if one wants to drink the bottles than me rather than auction them or pass them on to heirs.

            where do you and your s.o. enjoy eating in SF ?

          • If you haven’t been to Amador, you should definitely check it out.
            Its very underated and a real treat. Amador is North East of Folsom CA. Btw
            It’s one of my favorite places to taste because most of them are free. Paso Robles is also so good, but getting congested.

          • drew, have indeed enjoyed a few wines from the Amador area, but nowadays prefer going to food and wine tastings to get a survey of various vineyards and vintners in one place. when P.Robles enjoyed its mini wine boom, it hosted a major conference for international Rhone variety growers and vintners. taking the area between P.Robles and the coast, and southward to S.Barbara, a significant variety of high quality grapes can be cultivated and vinified, including some of the best syrahs and acclaimed pinot noirs of the entire state.

            are you the same individual who posts on chowhound ?

      • I see Gallo no longer makes Ripple, which used to go for a buck a bottle. I have a few fond memories of youthful self-abuse.

  62. Strauss repeats what we heard elsewhere:

    “Love reportedly did have interest in joining the Warriors but couldn’t and didn’t promise to stay beyond the year left on his contract.”

    In Maui’s link above.

    Technically, he can’t commit, but he can make his wishes known, as we saw with Cleveland.

    That moots any discussion for me about the Love trade. I don’t think the team would be that much better with him, given its other shortcomings, but it wouldn’t be a matter of satisfying the Warriors or us, but Love himself, who would have plenty of options the following season once he turned free agent. And I don’t think he would have stayed. The trade would have been a bad risk that could have turned into a disaster.

  63. http://www.csnbayarea.com/warriors/love-traded-cavaliers-joins-lebron

    Just for fun, if Embiid did not get hurt right before the draft, would the Cavs have drafted him no. 1, and if so, would the Cavs have traded him for Love?

  64. So Barbosa?

  65. Random thoughts:

    Why is Klay Thompson referred to as the Warriors third option when he takes the second most shots?

    Looks like Coach K and his staff teaching Curry and Thompson how to play defense on the perimeter hope it carries over the the season. Won’t hurt their offense. In fact will improve their respective offenses.

    Let’s wait and see how Rush and Barbosa actually play.

    • “Why is Klay Thompson referred to as the Warriors third option when he takes the second most shots?”

      David Lee has higher USG than Klay. Look it up.

  66. Just checked last years NBA All-Defensive Team results. Andrew Bogut received no first place votes, one fewer second place vote than Klay Thompson (5), and 3 more than David Lee (1).

    The top vote-getter Joakim Noah got 118 votes (115 first), to put it in perspective.

    • Yes, and Fitz and Barnett as well as Rusty voted for Bogut and not for Klay so you have to subtract one or two token points from the ‘Rim Protector’.

    • warriorsablaze

      Important note:

      “Until the 2013-2014 NBA season, voting was conducted by the NBA head coaches; the coaches are not allowed to vote for players on their own team. In 2014, a panel of 123 media members voted for the two All-Defensive Teams.”

      In other words…as of last season, the All-Defensive Teams became only slightly more meaningful than the All Star starters. I find it interesting that someone so critical of the NBA media would even post this info with any other intention but to criticize the award. Doesn’t appear to be your intention here.

      He was 6th in blocks (in fewer minutes than all above him) and ranked 4th best center in ESPN’s DRPM metric. There is a lot to criticize with Bogut; defense is among the last of those things.

  67. Another war criminal has re-emerged from the woodwork to lay the blame for Mideast unrest and Russia’s reassertion of control over their corridor to the Black Sea at Obama’s feet. I discern here a concealed attack on Obama’s multilateral approach to foreign policy, and an attempt to restate the intellectual foundation for unilateral intervention — cloaked here and elsewhere in Republican discourse as “American exceptionalism.” The same doctrine that led us into Iraq — and Vietnam.

    http://online.wsj.com/articles/henry-kissinger-on-the-assembly-of-a-new-world-order-1409328075

  68. Amen to that Mr. Feltbot. Thanks for posting the WSJ piece. Another example of “What’s good for Kissinger Associates is good for America.” Surely all the chicken hawks who had “more important things to do” than slog through Vietnam 45 years ago are in favor. Ah but more importantly, what do the Kardashians think?

  69. It seems to me the US has supported the overthrow of bad guys in Iraq, Libya,and Ukraine only to install worse guys that have made the world more unstable.We have supported the overthrow of elected governments and recognized a military coup in Egypt. So much for our being true to our values as a democracy.

    In Ukraine we supported fascist and Nazis in overthrowing there elected government.

    Henry Kissinger fails to mention that the US supported the overthrow
    of a constitutional elected government in the Ukraine he wholeheartedly supports. He fails to mention that the new government has just dismantled it’s parliament. Nor does he care that the Ukranian military has fired mortars into residential houses in the eastern part of the country where mostly Russians reside. Not exactly a way to win the hearts and minds of people will the government. And such may explain why Russia has intervened.

    And it seems apparent that the US national security apparatus helped create ISIS by having their friend Saudi Intelligence chief Bandar get Saudi Arabian billionaires fund ISIS so that they could be sent into Syria to overthrow the Syrian government. You don’t see those billionaires beings indicted.

    Also there is also some evidence that the US covert guys have helped ISIS obtain Iraqi tanks and Iraqi military men as I don’t buy that 30,000 Iraqi soldiers would all collectively decide to abandon their tanks and take off their uniforms when faced by an ISIS force of 750 men. Surely, even if so, they would have been safer to drive the tanks back home. There are also reports that many of the soldiers then joined Isis. Such would explain them stripping and leaving their uniforms on the ground. They probably replaced them with Isis uniforms. For me, the whole surrender was pre planned in advance so that Isis would have more arms to fight in Syria. If so, who ordered the so call surrender. . Our press once again has failed is badly.

    Once now has to ask if the goal now is for the US to attack ISIS and to directly overthrow the Syria government.

    Yes, ISIS has to be dismantled, but we also have to stop remaking the Middle East.

    • Frank perhaps you’re too young to have benefitted from public schooling during the very early cold war. ‘remaking the Middle East’ by western powers started in earnest with the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire, the aftermath of the first great war, and after the second our nation seized its opportunity to get back into empire building.

      back in the 50s american kids were given Orwell to study, with the direction to apply it to the soviets, because after all the author intended much of the two principal works being taught as critiques of Stalinism. we also toppled a democratically elected government in Iran, and prevented elections in Viet Nam. at present, the bloodiest conflict in the world over the past decade is the blowback from our collusion in the overthrow of another, Lumumba, in 1960. one reason our government could effectively instill ‘doublethink’ into its citizens, was the great purge of internationalists and unionists from the mass entertainment industry and from nuclear research, with obvious effects in publishing and education as well. in many ways our film, theatre, broadcasting, education, and publishing sectors have never recovered. makes it a lot easier for our government to shove myths like ‘weapons of mass destruction’ or anti-u.s. terrorism funded by Iraq down our throats.

    • ISIS is a product of the Sunna in Syria and Iraq who will control or dismantle them once their goal of self-determination and autonomy from their Shia rulers is realized. The tail don’t wag the dog for long.

      The Sunna found ISIS when they needed them and pushed then to the fore front in the same way the Germans found Hitler and the Western Europeans found Bonaparte to invade Russia.

      I hope we stay the heck out of it. (I fear the Neo-Cons are gaining strength.)

      And the Western Europeans ought to have learned by now to leave Russia alone.

      • the French and the Brits invented political borders after the Ottoman collapse, and their creation Iraq was intrinsically an unstable tripod between the Sunni, Shi’a, and the Kurds. if democratic elections conform to those factional lines, the Shi’a would have the majority, as opposed to Saddam keeping his (minority) Sunni political party in power until the lesser bush came along.

  70. Barnes and Nedo for Bledsoe… Hated facing him last season. Doubt he wants to come off the bench tho…

  71. It’s amazing that the public would even want to know the views of Henry Kissinger. a man who advocated the ill-fated Vietnam that resulted in the killing of 3,000,000 Vietnamese and 52,000 brave US military men and the ensuing pain endured by their famines. As today US military and commercial planes fly into the former North and South Vietnam.

  72. Turkey taking it to Team USA, now half time on 38 ESPN (Comcast).

    Saw Rose travel off a good Curry feed, and Gay blow a defensive assignment. He was pulled for Klay.

    Klay hit a crucial 3 and forced his man into Cousins, who failed to rotate.

    Not pretty. Turkey is zoning them.

  73. Watt?

    Craft?

    MacAdoo?

    MacAdoo, from DraftExpress:

    “James McAdoo didn’t show the progress most wanted to see during his 3 years at North Carolina. Still, the forward did make some progress this past year on his efficiency in the post. While his overall usage didn’t increase all that much on the block, he did improve from 0.656 points per possession during his sophomore season to 0.857 during his junior year. That being said the vast majority of his offense still comes off the ball, with 16% coming in transition, 15.2% on cuts to the basket, 13.7% on spot-up attempts and 10% off of offensive rebounds. His efficiency in all of these areas leaves something to be desired, as his ability finishing around the rim (1.21 points per shot) is below average relative to the group average. Coupled with his 21.6% shooting on jump shots, and McAdoo has an uphill battle to find himself a role at the next level.”

    http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/James-McAdoo-5763/

  74. Udoh wasn’t going to sign with Warriors even if offered made. Not when GMMyers didn’t even show-up to tell him And Ellis they had been treated. Glad Udoh signed with Clippers and now has chance to be on team that goes far in the playoffs. Hope he’s able to produce like he did before his injury last year.

    • Udoh would have certainly worked better than Watt or McAdoo. But I don’t think they have the bucks to pay him, even though he won’t be getting much. And I suspect Myers/Lacob refuse to go back on decisions already made—Udoh, Reggie, etc.

      • Congrats to Ekpe for his new contract, but last year he averaged 3 min/game for the worst team in the league, AND injured his knee. That’s not a guy you can confidently say would “work better” than anyone at all.

        • “but last year he averaged 3 min/game for the worst team in the league, AND injured his knee. ”

          Where are you getting 3 mpg? It’s 19.1 according to basketball-reference.

          • As for those Hats...

            My mistake. I beg your forgiveness, stat guy. I must have somehow gotten fixated on Udoh’s 3 ppg and 3 rpg. All of those too-close-to-zero numbers must have left me confused about Udoh’s awesome value.

      • “And I suspect Myers/Lacob refuse to go back on decisions already made—Udoh, Reggie, etc.”

        They already brought back Rush. My guess is they went after Udoh and when he denied them, they signed McAdoo and Watt.

        • Right. Or maybe they just refuse to look at Nelson picks. But we all liked Rush and I’m hoping he returns full form. If he does, he could add a lot.

          • I suspect this is it. They wanted to rid themselves of as much of the Nelson team as possible, so as to be able to claim credit for the improvement.

  75. Anthony Davis playing career basketball — as a center.

    Is that his normal position with New Orleans?

    • He won’t be a center with Asik there. And I would imagine much like Lee and Bogut there will be spacing problems galore with that front line.

      • Not so much because Asik is a terrific pick and roll finisher, and loves the ball. In contrast to someone we know. And AD’s jumper is a threat in the high post area.

        And oh, the defense. Warriors going to have big time problems with this front line, because AD is kryptonite for David Lee. And with Asik backing him up? You can completely forget about any kind of pick and roll.

        And a healthy Ryan Anderson off the bench, to mix and match with Asik and AD… what spacing problem?

        Can the Warriors beat this team?

        • “Asik is a terrific pick and roll finisher, and loves the ball.”

          Good call. Didn’t realize he actually ran it that much.

          Regarding AD, I’m fine with him shooting mid-range jumpers. But offensively, his best play and Asik’s are both pick and roll.

          Is there a play where a point guard has two bigs as options on PNR?

          • I don’t know, but AD is a terrorizing P&R finisher and shot blocker on this Team USA.

            If I was a Pelicans fan, would love to see a lot of Davis at the 5 with Anderson (if healthy) at the 4.

            And yes, if Evans and Gordan decide to cooperate and play sound team ball, the Pelicans beat the Warriors.

  76. “The NFL is becoming basketball on turf”: the height-race in the NFL.

    http://online.wsj.com/articles/how-the-seattle-seahawks-changed-the-nfl-1409757930

    Tall cornerbacks are analogous to the NBA’s stretch-fours in this way: the positional revolution that has changed the game.

    • tall cornerbacks have been valued highly for a long time. there are more athletes now who have the requisite speed and agility in combination with the height. if anyone here remembers seeing the locals Jimmie Johnson or Mike Haynes play, their height and size were part of their dominance. since their time, hoops players have become taller and bigger and faster, so a corresponding increase among defensive backs is no surprise.

      • Offenses will adjust if too many corners get tall. The Wes Welkers of the world can run circles around a tall corner because they get in and out of breaks so quickly.

        However, a 6-1 corner in his prime is a dominant player.

        • j.johnson and haynes were 6’2. people from my generation might have also seen johnson’s brother rafer competing in the olympic decathalon against that Chinese guy. in that same era bobby bonds’ sister rosie was this country’s best in the high hurdles, for another example of how genetics matter with athletes.

    • the apprenticeship of duddy lacob the younger will continue a bit further — as a lit guy you probably know the mordecai richler reference.

  77. On Iguodala’s twitter about the NZ game:

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/basketball/10459367/Steven-Adams-stands-up-for-Tall-Blacks-haka

    Two points:

    1. I don’t see anything in the least offensive in his comment (“New Zealand thought they dance was gone intimidate us…. That ain’t nothing but the A town stump! #GoUSA #FIBAWorldCup2014 ,”)

    2. I really like that dance.

  78. Bob Myers score card, from B-ball Insiders:

    “Let’s take a look at some of Myers’ biggest moves since taking the helm in Golden State:

    Signed Stephen Curry to an extremely favorable four-year $44 million contract extension

    Selected Harrison Barnes, 7th overall, 2012 draft

    Selected Festus Ezeli, 30th overall, 2012 draft

    Selected Draymond Green, 35th overall, 2012 draft

    Traded shooting guard Brandon Rush, forward Richard Jefferson, center Andris Biedrins, two first-round picks (2014, 2017) and two second-round picks (2016, 2017) to the Utah Jazz along with a 2018 second-round pick to the Denver Nuggets for forward Andre Iguodala (Denver)

    Signed center Andrew Bogut to a three-year $36 million contract extension

    Fired Mark Jackson as head coach

    Hired Steve Kerr as head coach

    http://www.basketballinsiders.com/nba-am-boom-or-bust-for-golden-state-warriors/

    Should be good for discussion, i.e. much of this could be converted to Myers biggest mistakes and lucky breaks. Note the difference between “scouting” a player and “selecting” one. I’m curious what Myers’ influence is in scouting. Riley scouted Green and Ezeli, but did he scout Barnes (or if he did, give favorable review)?

    But of course we know who had the final say, so I wonder how much influence Myers had in any of this.

  79. Is Bogut’s contract $36M PLUS incentives (which I don’t think he reached last season) or is it $36M including if he reaches the incentives?

    And if he doesn’t get the incentives, how much of his salary counts against the cap?

    • the cap considers the guaranteed portion of the the salary first, and any of the incentives/bonuses actually awarded/paid, post facto.